Becky Albertalli

Becky Albertalli: There were kind of always two simultaneous stories happening with my coming out. One was the realization and breaking through some of that denial and repression and seeing what was right there in front of me. And I gave that story to Imogen.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: What if there are two stories running through your life? The one you're telling the world and then the one you haven't admitted to yourself. Coming out, growing up, discovering who we are, it's rarely a single moment. Instead, it's a slow process of breaking through denial, shedding expectations, and seeing clearly what's been there all along. And today's guest knows that experience intimately.

For years, Becky Albertalli wrote love stories and narratives about self discovery and identity that reflected truths she hadn't yet named in her own life. Becky is a New York Times best selling author of Simon versus the Homo Sapiens Agenda, Leah on the Offbeat, Imogen Obviously, and many more. In this episode, Becky shares how her childhood growing up in a conservative Georgia suburb shaped her sense of self, how she found belonging in the theater, and her charmed publishing experience with her debut novel. We also talk about the babysitter's club as queer canon, her pretentious reader years, and how rent truly gave us so much. Our show is made possible by Beanstack, the leading solution for motivating people to read more.

Learn more at beanstack.com, and make sure to check us out on Instagram at the reading culture pod, where you can also find more details about our big summer reading giveaway, which ends on August 8. And subscribe to our newsletter for bonus content at the readingculturepod.com/newsletter. Alright. On to the show. Hey, listeners.

Are you looking for a fun, easy way to track your reading and earn cool rewards? Well, meet Beanstack, the ultimate reading app used by a community of over 15,000 schools, libraries, and organizations nationwide. Are you an avid reader? Check with your local library to see if they offer Beanstack for free. A parent?

Ask your child's teacher if the school library already uses Beanstack. And if you are an educator searching for a fresh alternative to accelerated reader, Beanstack is the perfect tool to cultivate a thriving reading culture. Ready to turn the page? Visit beanstack.com to learn more. Okay.

Before we get into the the heavy hitting questions or get started, I wanted to know if you've always gone by Becky. Are you Rebecca in some circles? Been Becky since a young age?

Becky Albertalli: I'm only Rebecca if I'm in trouble. I have always been Becky.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: You seem very into nicknames. Mhmm. In your book, nicknames play an important role.

Becky Albertalli: I don't know that I necessarily put a lot of thought into my own nickname. It's just, like, kind of always what I was called.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Okay. Back to Georgia. Tell me about your your early early childhood.

Becky Albertalli: I grew up in the Northern Suburbs of Atlanta. Anybody who's read my books would recognize the suburb where I grew up is where, like, Simon and Leah live. They renamed it in the books. They call it Shady Creek, but it is, like, a very, very thinly veiled sandy springs. And I feel like the helpful point of reference is that at the time when I was growing up there, you know, the eighties and then the nineties, that was around the time when my district sent Newt Gingrich to congress.

My family was not a part of that. I think the only time my mom put a political sign in our yard was for the guy running against him. But he still won just to give a sense of what it was like there. So it's a conservative leaning, affluent suburb close to Atlanta that it wasn't that rural picture that people sometimes will paint in their heads when you talk about Georgia. It is a lot more purple now than it used to be.

I mean, it has been really nice to watch that evolution. You know, it's easy to feel really hopeless these days. And one of the, things I keep coming back to when I'm trying to stave off that despair is just big picture. When I look at my hometown, that progress is undeniable to me.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: You said Newt Gingrich. I know you're Jewish. What was it like growing up in that environment? Were you, like, one of few, one of many?

Becky Albertalli: You know, I went to this smallish, maybe medium sized public high school that had an international studies magnet program, and it attracted students from outside our geographic district as well as, like, the people who were zoned for it. So it was a really cool diverse group of kids. Like, you would walk through the hallways, and there were a lot of languages spoken, and that was just something that, you know, was part of the culture of my high school.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah.

Becky Albertalli: It was, I would say, fairly progressive in some ways for a high school in the late nineties, early two thousands, especially in Georgia.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Okay. So your high school had this, like what you're describing is this, like, dynamic diverse energy, basically, especially for that time and place that we both grew up in. But I'm curious what you were like in that setting, I guess, growing up and how you describe yourself back then or, I guess, how you think other people might have described you.

Becky Albertalli: I'm shy and the kind of kid who got told frequently on my report cards that I was very conscientious and a pleasure to have in class.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: I have to tell you, they

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: have so many parallels. When I was in fifth grade, I won the most conscientious award.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: So I just find that very funny. And my parents were so proud. I'm like, what does conscientious mean?

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: I wanna be the best at sports or something cool, like, pretty is.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: I know. Sorry. Go ahead. You were a little shy and conscientious.

Becky Albertalli: It's so funny. You got, like, flagged as conscientious back then. You definitely have a job related to bookstore. But I found, like, this journal that I wrote, I think it was, like, second grade. My favorite quote from my journal, which I think really captures who I was at the time, was, you must know I hate school, but I'm very good in it.

So

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: You already had your voice, your writer voice.

Becky Albertalli: Yeah. I think, you know, in retrospect, I was, like, wildly ADHD and overcompensating all the time. So I think that might be why I hated school but was good in it. Mhmm. Yeah.

I didn't get in trouble. I did kinda discover theater in middle school and started doing the plays. And I was, like, in the background and stuff, and then it was, like, coming out of my shell and theater saved me. And I felt, you know, for all of middle school and high school that theater was my recalibration. Like, that was how I started to define myself.

So I was a big time theater kid, but it was not, like, typically the lead role or anything. I was, you know, I think ultimately too awkward for that. I did get a lead role once senior year because the main character was very awkward. I played just this very, like, earnest twelve year old girl. You know, it was maybe a natural fit for me at age 18.

And I was definitely, you know, happiest during high school when I was, like, staying after school, working on the sets. And I loved, like, rehearsing. I loved, like, being a part of the ensemble. Oh my gosh. My journal entries about that, like, coming down period are so emo.

It is Really? Ridicule like, oh, they, like, they really read, like I I can't even remember the wording, but it's like if you were to take a theater kid, you know, and, like, turn it into a journal entry. The drama. Oh, it was yeah. Like, those were hard times for me.

Like, the day after we took the set down.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: In the theater, being part of the ensemble gave Becky a sense of purpose and a place to land. But outside of that space, it was harder. Becky has said in other interviews that she grew up fat. And like Leah, the main character in her book, Leah on the offbeat, she didn't always feel at ease in her own body. Growing up in a body that was constantly being judged, especially in the nineties, shaped not just how others saw Becky, but how much or how little of her own desires that Becky was willing to share.

Becky Albertalli: In many ways, being a fat kid was certainly one of, if not, like, the defining experience for me in terms of what was really right there on the surface. And I still see the way that it impacted, you know, just I don't know. The ripple effect was pretty intense, I think. I was definitely bullied. It was the nineties.

You know, I remember fifth grade in particular. It's actually fifth grade is the worst for me. I was at this lunch table where the thing that we did that day was, like, just I sat there at my assigned seat and got, like, intensely bullied to my face. And it didn't occur to me. I didn't feel like I could tell anybody.

It just literally didn't even occur to me that I could say anything.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: You felt like I had to just take it?

Becky Albertalli: Yeah. Because it was my assigned seat. You know? Mhmm. So it's not like I took that very seriously.

You know, one of the things I keep coming back to is that I, for many reasons, didn't even have the ability to see that or process it. I didn't have the language for it, and a lot of that was my environment, the cultural context of, like, living in Georgia, you know, in the nineties. There was this part of me that felt like, you know, I was fundamentally unattractive. Me liking somebody would be a burden on them. The idea of opening that door to the idea that I could have a broader pool of people who I could be rejected by, because that is what it meant to me.

To like someone was to open yourself up to inevitable rejection. And so it's like, I can't imagine a world where I would have explored that. I didn't even explore it in my own head. And a lot of that, particularly, at the time was tied to body stuff. That was a lot of what I was bullied for.

So, yeah, not a fun time to be a fat Ken and a very confusing time to be a little bisexual Ken. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Coupled with the fact that at the time, there was not, like, mainstream language that there is today around these different ways to be queer. And I'm like, my kids, they had this full lexicon to talk about sexuality with this amazing degree of, like, specificity. You know? But in my high school, I don't know. Was, like, gay, straight.

That was it. Pretty much. I felt like it was pretty black and white. You know? And I just I know that was probably a limitation for you at that age too.

Yeah.

Becky Albertalli: Well, I remember I knew the word bisexual by the time I was in high school, and I'm thinking probably that came directly from rent, like, specifically from rent.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Rent gave us so much.

Becky Albertalli: Rent gave us so much. But, you know, I had a very narrow view of what that could mean. Like, it would be preposterous for me to be bisexual like Maureen from Rent who attracts boys and girls, and I was attracting none of the above. I

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: did wanna ask about the media that you were consuming growing up and how that might have impacted your perceptions of queerness and and so forth as you were, you know, in high school, middle school?

Becky Albertalli: Yeah. Okay. So one of my biggest influences, you know, as a writer, as a person, just to my core is The Babysitter's Club. I read every single one. I actually read The Babysitter's Little Sister, like the ones about Karen.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Oh, that's the next level. Okay.

Becky Albertalli: I've been with The Babysitter's Club since I was seven or something. And I think that is fundamentally a very queer series. Those books were published during a particular cultural moment, but I think they have aged remarkably well. And I think, you know, there is a kind of queerness about them that I think a lot of, like, queer kids or kids who would you know, adults who would eventually come to realize that they were queer saw something in that series that felt safe.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Do you wanna say a little bit more about that? It feels like you're thinking beyond the relationships among the girls and so forth too.

Becky Albertalli: There's a lot. I think, like I mean, Christy Thomas, the president, is definitely one who I think, like, a lot of sapphic women feel connected to. And then I think, you know, some of it is just the emphasis on the relationships among these girls and their friendships and the intimacy of that series. It's been interesting to kind of follow that franchise as well. I watch every adaptation, actually.

The one that came out in the nineties, I watched that again recently on a plane. I don't know about, like, Stacy and her love interest. There was a little bit of an age gap that I'm not sure, like, would fly today with that particular adaptation. I still love that movie, though. Yeah.

The Netflix one was such a cool update Yes. On the original series. It was so much in the spirit of the books. I believe Anna Martin was very involved.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Mhmm.

Becky Albertalli: There was a trans kid among the babysitting kids in Stony Brook. I don't wanna give any spoilers, but we do have one of the babysitters come out as queer. And, I don't know. It's a safe space of a series.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Like theater, the Babysitter's Club was Becky's safe space, a series she adored then and proudly revisits now. But like a lot of bookish kids, she eventually hit that inevitable phase, the one where loving something like the babysitter's club suddenly felt uncool.

Becky Albertalli: I went through a phase in high school where I was, like, a pretentious little reader. You know? I I remember walking into books and I've always loved You. But at one point, I felt like it was embarrassing to love You. Oh.

I got over that. And I got over it fairly quickly. But I think during the time when I was a You, I was like I was reading a lot of, like, very thick literary kind of books. Mhmm. Some of which I still love.

Like, I remember in high school, I really loved a prayer for Owen Meaney.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Oh my god. I I love that book. I should reread that book.

Becky Albertalli: I love that book. Oh, I brought this, like, weathered old I met John Irving at a festival once, and I was like, I'm a fan. And I think he's probably, you know, maybe he thought it was being nice, and then I, like, pull out this copy of own meaning that's been read, like, a thousand times.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: College is where a lot of people have their great awakening. And on a campus like Wesleyan's, queer, creative, full of chalked up sidewalks, and found family energy, you'd think that's where Becky would have come out. Side note, turns out Becky and I have an uncanny amount in common. I'll share more about that in the newsletter, but let's just say that we even won the same superlative in fifth grade. I digress.

And as a Wesleyan grad myself, I can vouch for the very open vibe on campus. Spoken word poetry was everywhere, and we even had alternatives to dorms on campus like womanist house or eclectic house. I mean, it was a progressive, quirky, accepting place to come into adulthood. That is for sure.

Becky Albertalli: One thing about Wesleyan that I think is really interesting in retrospect kind of puzzle pieces coming together

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Mhmm.

Becky Albertalli: Is I remember visiting the campus as a senior. I had found out maybe the day before my visit that I got in. I was there with my dad. And so first, my dad did not love Wesleyan. He had some strong opinions about the dorm rooms, which he just felt were not aesthetically pleasing, I guess.

Like, they looked to him, they looked like motel. I don't know what he was expecting. Like, they're

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: like paying what? For what?

Becky Albertalli: They look like doors. I don't know if he was used to kinda the big southern schools or something, like, had a different kind of aesthetic. So while he was doing his one man comedy show, Riffing on the Dorms, I was falling in love with this school trying to explain why I loved the chalking on the sidewalk. People would chalk pictures and messages and write social justice things and, like, it's a lot of, like, gay stuff. Yeah.

There are, like, all these, like, gay flyers everywhere. And I was like, this place appeals to me as an ally. You know, it's an ally to the, the gay community. To my dad's credit too, as soon as he found out, I actually seriously loved the school. He gave another shot.

We went back. And he was fully open to it and has been gently, affectionately mocking me about it for, you know, like, thirty something years. It

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: makes sense that you went there and felt like, okay. I wanna be in this environment. I think Wesleyan was like you might not have found a more, like, open people who are just, like, discovering themselves, welcoming environment for all. And I think there's no, like, mistaking it when you go on campus, even in the late nineties. You know?

I think it's like there was no mistaking that that you knew that upon walking into the campus. So I guess you felt that connection. Like, you must have felt like, okay. I wanna be here.

Becky Albertalli: Yeah. I didn't understand it at all. Like, you would think I would say, like, it takes a special someone maybe to, like, go through four years kind of immersed in Wesleyan and, like, actively loving the queerness of Wesleyan without understanding why. You know, I also wrote Simon versus the Homo Sapiens Agenda and still didn't get it.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: So you're a special kind of person?

Becky Albertalli: I am a special case. Yes. Dear Emily, check it out. I just saved the lives of the whole school. I'm on the oval right now, and I can hardly see this paper through my tears of life giving joy.

Okay. Check it out. I'll tell you what happened. I was in the admin block outside the principal's office. I won't go into the reasons why I was there because it would destroy the flow of the story.

The fact is I was there and on my own because the secretary just went out for a moment and the telephone rang. So I answer the phone, hello? And this voice goes, hello? And I go, hello? And this voice goes, what?

So I go, Brookfield High School, how may I direct your call, please? As per what I hear the secretary say every time I'm waiting there. Then this voice goes, yes. Hello. I'm with local gas authority, and I'm calling from the basement of your school here.

I'm just checking the main gas line, and there is a serious leak here. Really, so serious that at any moment there could be an explosion. I, myself, am about to run to my car and get the hell away, but I thought I should let you know so you can sound the fire alarm and get everybody out of the school and onto the oval. Check out how cool I was under pressure. I just said, thank you very much and please get yourself out of there and save your own life.

Then I hung up, switched on the PA system and said, there is a gas leak in the basement of the school. There is no need to panic. It is just a gas leak, which may lead to an explosion at any moment. Please all go to the oval as per the fire drills. Then I found the fire alarm and pressed the button.

So then, of course, the doors all around me open and the principal practically kills me to switch off the PA, and somehow I landed on the office floor, but I kept my dignity. So that explains why I am on the Oval right now and not doing my origins of the first World War examination and also why I have now got a new faith in humanity on account of being its savior. When you think about it, the young people are the future, so I have saved the future.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Becky just read from the year of secret assignments by Jacqueline Moriarty. A dark, funny, heartfelt novel told through letters, emails, and other mixed media storytelling. It follows three best friends whose school pen pal project spirals into unexpected friendships, romance, and a dangerous game of revenge. The excerpt was a letter written by Charlie to his pen pal Emily. Becky first read the book when she was at Wesleyan, emerging from what she calls her quote pretentious reader phase.

For the first time, she felt proud to be reading You, intimate and irreverent all at once. Moriarty's prose showed her that you were allowed to write like that.

Becky Albertalli: One of the things that was such a revelation to me was the, specificity of the voice, that quality that people sometimes within publishing will talk about, like voiciness. You know? That feeling that you kind of are hearing this character, like, speak to you directly. I just, like, really picked it off the shelf and gave it a shot out of nowhere as I was bravely walking toward the You section, like, willing to be seen there. You know?

I was, like, just old enough that I understood that, like, you could actually, like, read these books. You know? Reading her books, and this was the first of hers that I had read and I have since read. I have, like, a massive shelf just, like, full of her books. Like, I remain a super fan for life.

You know? But, yeah. This was my first encounter with her. And it was like, I didn't know you were allowed to write like that, I guess. One of the things I was fighting against at that time of my life, like, in my college years, my twenties, was this idea I had that, like, well, you can't actually be an author.

You know?

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: So it's not that you didn't want to be an author. It's that you felt like that's not real.

Becky Albertalli: It didn't seem like a real job. So I fell in love with Jacqueline Moriarty as a reader, but, you know, that was really something that I held with me because I think for a long time, I had this idea that to be a writer, you have to write in a particular way. And maybe that was, like, coming off of my, like, literary phase in high school. I

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: don't know. Right. You're reading Owen Meaney. Like, I don't know if I'm gonna do this.

Becky Albertalli: Yeah. I don't know. It just, like, unlocks something for me just how conversational and intimate her writing always feels for me.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Moriarty's influence emerged with the publication of Becky's debut novel, Simon versus the Homo Sapiens Agenda. Becky wrote it after a decade of working as a psychologist specializing in LGBTQ plus teens, and she placed a gay high schoolers coming out struggles front and center. As it turned out, she chose her main character for reasons even she didn't entirely realize.

Becky Albertalli: Yeah. It's interesting because my answer now is very different than it was at the time. You know, at the time, a lot of it was a big mystery to me. I don't know. I had this entire chain of events that I felt like brought me there.

At the time, it was like, you know, this book started with Simon, and he was just this character who felt really important to me. And Simon himself, like his personality, I mean, he is a lot like me. His, like, kind of internal monologue is a lot like mine. I gave him my birthday. I put him at my high school.

It's a very thinly veiled version of my high school. There's always been enough of me in that book obscured the other parts of me that were in that book. You know? Yeah. In retrospect, it's really easy to see.

But it's like, can hardly stand to read that book because it's so embarrassing to read how loud I was and how many very obvious signs that I missed. It's like, Simon is in there in his own brain saying things like, sometimes it feels like everybody knows who I am except me. I don't think straight people really think about coming out. As I was drafting Simon, I wrote the part where Simon you know, he's like, this is supposed to be my thing. I'm supposed to decide.

And, like, I wrote that and burst into I was, like, having a writer's moment. You know?

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. But in retrospect, of course, you're looking back and sort of really seeing everything for what it was. Mhmm.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: In 2020, after decades of skirting around her sexuality, that thing she had suppressed, yet had always been staring her in the face, Becky came out to the public via an essay on Medium.

Becky Albertalli: It did feel like something I had to do, but I, you know, I came out to my parents, close friends and family and inner circle, and I, was was and am unbelievably lucky in a lot of ways. I didn't have to risk what some people have to risk. You know? And it was still unbelievably hard. The public aspect of it is really complicated.

And I think more than anything else I mean, time has helped in therapy. But being able to kind of write my way into it and understand that experience and there were kind of always two simultaneous stories happening with my coming out. One was the realization and breaking through some of that denial and repression and seeing kind of what was right there in front of me. And I gave that story to Imogen. And I think kind of the other piece to it is that public aspect, the discourse, the parasocial soup that I was swimming in for that whole experience.

I guess I I could say I worked through that experience in the, Amelia book. I would say, actually, I gave that experience to Walter, who is a character in that book. Yeah. So those two stories really they really are companions to each other. They are set in the same universe, but they also are maybe the two sides of the coin when it comes to my own, like, coming out experience.

And it was unbelievably helpful to write those books. Writing has always been the way that I puzzle through things and work through things and process them. So grateful for all of my books and everything that's come with them, but, those two in particular, you know, have really helped me understand and work through that traumatic experience.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. You have, like, this cast of characters, and it feels like they're each sort of, like, holding a little piece of something. You know?

Becky Albertalli: Yeah. They are.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: I I highlighted this quote from Imogen, if only, and it reads, I was a human sailboat blown in every direction by a storm of decades old media discourse. Am I allowed to love this? And really, I think it speaks to this idea of permission. Like, I'm I'm allowed to love who I love or be who I am. And in your books, like, friendship just always plays such an important role.

We talked a little about the babysitter's club and friendship there. And I don't know. Could you talk about the role of close friendships in helping you or your characters find your way?

Becky Albertalli: Yeah. I mean, that's kind of one of those things that I've always I feel like it's almost like sheer luck that I have had through every stage of my life, really true friends and close friends of, you know, various genders too, not all women. But I have had a lot of close friendships with girls when I was younger with women in my adulthood. Also, like, with my sister, you know, who I have forgiven for reading my diary. When I was a teenager, when I was the age that I'm writing, I was getting no action.

I did not have the romance side of the story, but I did have the safety of a real friend group and close friendships that made space for growth and change. That's something that's carried into adulthood with some of the same people, some different people. I'm really grateful for that.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Becky's reading challenge will come as no surprise. It's titled queer coming of age stories. The list is packed with identity shifts, big feelings, and characters trying to make sense of themselves one awkward moment at a time.

Becky Albertalli: Okay. So I put coming of age stories, many of which are kind of about, like, unpacking queer identity, but broader than that, I didn't stick too closely necessarily to the theme. I've got, like, a nice long list, and I am big fans of all of these. And, also, this was painful to, like, get down the Lesbianist Guide to Catholic School by Sonora Reyes. Darius the Great is Not Okay by Adeeb Koram.

Nothing Burns as Bright as You, Ashley Woodfolk. This Day Changes Everything, Edward Underhill. Dear Wendy, Anne Zhao, man o war, Corey McCarthy. I have to plug a very new release, nobody in particular by Sophie Gonzales. Also, like, all of these guys have, like, backlists and stuff too.

It's like, oh, I've got so many more.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: You can find Becky's reading challenge and all past reading challenges at the readingculturepod.com. And this week's Beanstack featured librarian is Kelly Shelton, an elementary librarian for Garland ISD in Garland, Texas. She's been an educator for twenty six years and in the library for nearly a decade. Kelly shares how unlocking a love of reading can start with dinosaurs, dog man, or a well timed Taylor Swift break.

KellyShelton: My heart for readers is just find them where they are. Like, what do they love? Let them read. Doesn't matter about reading level. Doesn't matter if they don't quite get it.

You can help them, but just let them read what they want. And so as a librarian, I love that I get to be like, here's your dinosaurs. Here's your cat kid. This year, I had a second grader, and he really had a hard time. He just could not be still.

And I was like, what is in your head? What are you doing? And he was like, I'm singing this song. And I was like, what song? He loved Taylor Swift.

He was a Swifty. But I got every book we possibly could find about Taylor Swift for this kid. And so we read epic. We read every article we could find. And so if he could sit for me and do what I needed him to do in the library, when the class was over, he would get a Taylor Swift brace.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: This has been the reading culture, and you've been listening to my conversation with Becky Albertalli. Again, I'm your host, Jordan Lloyd Bookie, and currently, I'm reading the three lives of Kate k by Kate Fagan and Red Queen by Victoria Aveyard. If you enjoyed today's episode, please take one minute to give us five stars on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. Your reviews really help the show get recommended to other people, so everyone counts, and thank you very much. This episode was produced by Mel Webb and Lower Street Media and script edited by Josiah Lamberto Egan.

To learn more about how you can help grow your community's reading culture, you can check out all of our resources at beanstack.com, and remember to sign up for our newsletter at the readingculturepod.com forward slash newsletter for special offers and bonus content. Thanks for listening, and keep reading.