About this episode
Kwame is best known "The Crossover," "Booked," "The Door of No Return," and numerous other novels and poetry collections. He also recently authored his memoir "Why Fathers Cry at Night." He has received a Newbery Medal and Coretta Scott King Book Award among many other awards, and this year "The Crossover" was adapted into a Disney Plus original TV series.
"I'm just being real. I'm telling my story. I think Nikki Giovanni calls it dancing naked on the floor. I am unafraid and I'm doing my dance… I don't feel like I can go wrong if I'm just being me.” - Kwame Alexander
Getting reluctant kids to read is one battle, getting them to think reading is cool is another. Kwame Alexander excels at both. His ability to authentically relate to his readers is a skill his career has built around.
In educational circles, Kwame's work is regarded as essential, especially for young Black boys. He has achieved a level of engagement with this demographic that many writers find challenging to attain. But his impact extends beyond just an introduction to books, he also opens the door for readers to explore their own emotional depths. As he tells us, “I think part of my job is just to show a different side of masculinity.”
In this episode, he tells us about his own upbringing surrounded by Black storytelling and literature, he reveals his secret to making middle-schoolers think he’s “cool”, and we’ll hear about a letter he received (which was “not fan mail”) that inspired a surprise visit to an unsuspecting kid.
***
Connect with Jordan and The Reading Culture @thereadingculturepod and subscribe to our newsletter at thereadingculturepod.com/newsletter.
***
In his reading challenge, Blackout, Kwame wants listeners to utilize their favorite books to look inward and make some art of their own.
You can find his list and all past reading challenges at thereadingculturepod.com.
This episode’s Beanstack Featured Librarian is Kirsten Weaver, the programming specialist for the Indianapolis Public Library. She shares some heartwarming stories about a book club she runs for teens at a residential treatment facility.
Contents
- Chapter 1 - Glasses first
- Chapter 2 - Mom’s stories, dad’s garage
- Chapter 3 - Love After Love
- Chapter 4 - The “Reluctant” Readers
- Chapter 5 - Kwame Shows Up
- Chapter 6 - America’s Next Great Authors
- Chapter 7 - Blackout
- Chapter 8 - Beanstack Featured Librarian
Author Reading Challenge
Download the free reading challenge worksheet, or view the challenge materials on our helpdesk.
. 
Links:
- The Reading Culture
- Kwame Alexander
- Why Fathers Cry: The Podcast | Kwame Alexander
- #KwameShowsUp
- Collected Poems, 1948-1984 - Derek Walcott
- The Reading Culture on Instagram (for giveaways and extra content)
- Beanstack resources to build your community’s reading culture
- The Crossover | Official Trailer | Disney+
- America's Next Great Author
View Transcript
Hide Transcript
Kwame Alexander:
I am just being real. I'm telling my story. I think Nikki Giovanni calls it dancing naked on the floor. I am unafraid and I'm doing my dance and if you like it, great, if you don't, go home. So yeah, I'm just being me and I guess I don't feel like I can go wrong if I'm just being me.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Kwame Alexander's stories and characters ring with remarkable authenticity. Kids and parents around the country and really around the world are his mega fans, and that includes yours truly. Kwame has become a beacon for genuine representation, particularly for young black boys, and he does it by simply being honest. Kwame is renowned for his books, the Crossover, the Undefeated, the Door of No Return, and numerous other novels, picture books and poetry collections. He recently authored his memoir, Why Fathers Cry At Night. His exceptional work has earned him prestigious awards, including the Newberry Medal and Coretta Scott King book award, and this year the crossover was adapted into a Disney plus original TV series. In this episode, Kwame discusses growing up in a family steeped in black storytelling and literature, tells us how he came very close to ending up as a biochemist and reveals the secret to making middle schoolers think he's cool. He'll also tell us about the letter that was specifically not fan mail, which inspired a surprise visit to an unsuspecting student. Oh, and hot tip, stick around until the very end for a hilarious bonus track.
My name is Jordan Lloyd Bookey, and this is The Reading Culture, a show where we speak with authors and illustrators to explore ways to build a stronger culture of reading in our communities. We dive into their personal experiences, their inspirations, and why their stories and ideas motivate kids to read more. Make sure to check us out on Instagram for giveaways at The Reading Culture Pod, and you can also subscribe to our newsletter at thereadingculturepod.com/newsletter. All right, onto the show.
As a glasses wearer, you have an amazing stable of glasses. So before we get into your life and times of Kwame Alexander, let's talk about your glasses versus your shoes. Do you feel that your glasses game or your shoe game is stronger?
Kwame Alexander:
First of all, thank you for having me on your brilliant podcast, and I wish your awesome listeners could hear you or could see you because you got the fly glasses on right now.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Whatever. I had to decide. See, I had a few other pairs, like, "Which ones am I going to wear for Kwame?"
Kwame Alexander:
But this is a podcast, like who...
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
I know, but we're on video.
Kwame Alexander:
It's true. And plus, in order to sound good, you got to look good so I get it. It was an eyeglass thing for me before it became a shoe thing. I'm still figuring out my shoe game, but once I realized that I couldn't see, I said, "Well..." And at the same time, my sort of hair was... I had these long locks and my hair was falling out as it were. It's like, okay, so maybe I'm going to go bald, so if I'm going to wear glasses, they need to make a statement because that's the only thing on my head that's going to matter. So yeah, it's definitely eyewear. The shoe thing is much more difficult because I wear size 16, so where can I find the fly shoes? And I'm getting older, so where can I find the fly shoes that feel comfortable?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Those orthopedic fly shoes.
Kwame Alexander:
Yeah, okay.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
That doesn't go together.
Kwame Alexander:
It doesn't.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Okay, Kwame. We're going to start the interview for real now, so prepare. All right. You've spoken a lot about your mom and her influence on you, and I want to hear about that. I first want to acknowledge that today, as we are recording, is September 1st, and that is actually the anniversary of her passing I read. So first I just want to know how you're celebrating her life today.
Kwame Alexander:
Well, I appreciate that. I'm on Folly Beach in Charleston, South Carolina, a place she really loved. We spent time here as a family, just vacationing and stuff, and she loved to sit outside in the morning and listen to the ocean. So I had planned this trip for my siblings, their families, my dad, but didn't really think about the fact that it was the anniversary of my mom's passing. I literally didn't think that Jordan. I was like, "I'm just going to get a beach house because it's the end of the summer, it's Labor Day weekend, let's just all get together." And then a couple weeks ago, I think I was being interviewed and someone casually mentioned, "Well, your anniversary of your mom's passing is coming up." And they asked sort of a similar question that you just asked and it hit me, oh snap, I'm going to be on Folly Beach with my family.
So in a way, it was sort of like her having her hand in my life again, just sort of, whether you believe in the universe, the creator, whomever you believe in, the ancestors have an impact on us, I think she probably has something to do with me being here, but I'm here to celebrate her, I'm probably going to do a walk on the beach and just reflect and try to think about all the precious memories. But yeah, just to be with my dad and my sisters and sort of just connect and engage with them, I'm sure that'll be comforting.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. That sounds very nice. Can you talk a bit about the influence that your mom had on you as a reader?
Kwame Alexander:
I think it's fitting that I'm here on the anniversary of the passing of my mother and I'm on this podcast called The Reading Culture. That's fitting because she was one half of the duo that instituted this reading culture in our home, in our lives. Books were so much a part of our existence and story, the power of story. So my mom was a storyteller, an official storyteller. She went to the National Storyteller Conventions.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Amazing.
Kwame Alexander:
And so, she used to tell us we were her practice audience. The Beautiful Girl With No Teeth or Moja Means One. I mean, she's constantly telling us these stories that I still know verbatim to this day. And so, that was always exciting to be able to hear and see someone perform theatrically in your bedroom at bedtime. Bedtime stories really came alive. The read aloud, reader's theater, folk tales, they were a part of our lives on a daily basis, bedtime, breakfast table, in the car, so it was always very informal and then sometimes it was formal. She would do storytelling at church in Sunday school, and so it just became a part of our lives and we all became adept at being able to share our words, to find our voice and to lift them up. It was just a part of us, man, and my mom and dad, they played their roles in that, in making that happen.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. It sounds like your dad played... Well, you had so many books in your house, I love that story about the garage. Just, I think, the visual for me of you having all these books and just having so many books, like they're everywhere. I read this article once about the negative of decluttering, I guess. Everybody was obsessed with Marie Kondo and declutter your house and make everything neat and what have you but the flip of that is that you probably would never get the experience you had in that garage, right? Where there's just stuff to explore.
Kwame Alexander:
Yeah. I mean, when I was in the garage, I could come across an old report card from my dad's, a newspaper clipping from the Air Force when he played basketball, a book of poems, a novel, just so much stuff, like information, and I just found myself being really curious and inquisitive and reading everything. A lot of cosmetology books because he was a barber in the Air Force, so how to cut hair, just random stuff. And so, I just soaked it all in and soaked it all up and it definitely contributed to me having a certain level of familiarity with books and a certain comfortability around books and literature because I had been exposed to every genre from very easy reading, poetry, to war and peace, everything was there.
The time will come when with elation, you will greet yourself arriving at your own door, in your own mirror, and each will smile at the other's welcome and say, "Sit here, eat." You will love again the stranger who was yourself. Give wine, give bread, give back your heart to itself, to the stranger who has loved you all your life, whom you ignored for another, who knows you by heart. Take down the love letters from the bookshelf, the photographs, the desperate notes, peel your own image from the mirror, sit, feast on your life.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Love After Love can be found in Derek Walcott's collection, Collected Poems, 1948 to 1984. Walcott, a Nobel Prize-winning Caribbean poet, playwright, and essayist who was known for his bold explorations of life and cultural heritage through philosophical and metaphorically laced writing. A young Kwame was on his way to a very non-literary career when he encountered Walcott's work and that discovery hit like a lightning bolt forever altering the course of his life.
Kwame Alexander:
My dad was a book publisher and I worked for him most of my child and young adult life, and from time to time, he would take me to conferences or trade shows and I'd be in charge of selling the books, working the table. And so, there was a big conference happening in London, I think it was 1987, it was called The Third World Radical Black Book Publishers Convention or something. It was publishers of black literature from around the world basically. And so, I didn't really want to go to work, but I wanted to go to London. Then we got to the book fair and my dad was doing workshops and teaching and mingling and doing deals, and I was working the table and meeting different people and selling these books by Alice Walker and Cheikh Anta Diop and Chancellor Williams and Frantz Fanon and Pearl Cleage and just, ah, and meeting so many cool people.
I remember somebody said, "I met this woman..." Because there's always a woman in the story. I met this woman and we kind of flirted and I was maybe a sophomore in college, maybe she was a grad student. I was way in over my head. And she invited me to a play that night. And so we went to see this play called Beef, No Chicken, and it was a play by Derek Walcott, the St. Lucian poet.
And I remember just being blown away by it. And I remember going back and asking my dad, "Why don't we sell Derek Walcott's books?" And then I ended up going to a bookstore or to another publisher's table and finding one of his poetry books and I remember reading this poem called Love After Love, and I was just like, "Whoa. That was incredible." And the next night, I went to this Caribbean restaurant and the Nigerian novelist, Ben Okri was there and I had just seen his book, The Famished Road, and I was just in this whole writerly world as a sophomore in college and I was floored by it and inspired by it and so excited to be in it, and I think that trip to London began my journey away from biochemistry.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah, you were a biochemistry major?
Kwame Alexander:
Yeah, and headed towards writing.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
That's wild. Yeah. It's interesting because you really grew up with books. So reading, something about that, what? Just being in that milieu or whatever, just really sealed it for you? I mean, you were taking these classes...
Kwame Alexander:
Oh yeah because I was taking chemistry and biochem and physics, but something about that London trip and reading these poets and seeing that play and meeting other artists and just being in that mix, it affected me, and I wanted... I've been, in a way, for the past 30 years, I've been trying to recreate that moment, what in various, these varied experiences that I've had, it's all about creating the energy and the inspiration of that moment where you felt like your responsibility was to find your voice, lift your voice up, do something meaningful with your voice, and enjoy that experience to the fullest.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Quick detour. Back when this podcast was still just an idea on a napkin, I had a lot of discussions with my kids about the authors that inspired them the most. Cassius immediately thought of Kwame, but he said, "Well, you won't be able to get him," But like I told him, never underestimate the power of a mother. As the mother of a middle school boy, I think Kwame's work is so important. This is a crucial age for developing emotional skills, and it's a bit of a magic window when there's a real opportunity to show boys how essential it is to be a complex human, including showing tenderness or sadness or any of the soft feelings, boys are oftentimes trained to stifle or to hide. Meanwhile, their demographic is commonly put in the category of reluctant readers. But one thing I hear repeatedly from teachers is that Kwame's books are different. They get boys excited to read and even to read about, yes, you guessed it, feelings. I wanted to know how Kwame thinks about writing for this audience and why his approach works so well.
Kwame Alexander:
I feel like middle school is such an important time for us to nurture and develop the kind of boys we want to grow into beautiful men, and I think in sixth, seventh and eighth grade, we have an opportunity to sort of change the narrative in how boys interact and engage and how we think about them. I feel like part of my responsibility with my books is to create characters that represent and reflect the kind of boy I was and some of the boys that I engaged with, and that it's okay and it's cool to be sensitive, to be thoughtful, to be loving. Those are cool things. It's okay to write a poem.
It's okay to do some of these things that we generally haven't shown boys that it's okay to do or be. I was in Kenya recently and I remember talking to some of the Kenyan men and I was like, "Is it okay? Do y'all cry here as men?" And one of the men was like, "Oh, no. No, we don't cry. We have never cried. We have never cried. We were beaten." And they talked how they were beaten as boys if they cried because it just showed weakness. And so I think part of my job is to show a different side of masculinity as I grow into becoming a better father, son, lover. I feel like part of my job is to help show another side. So I just create characters that are authentic to me, that I care about, that are me, based on me and my friends, and hopefully boys will connect with it and they'll do what this kid named Woody in Brian, Texas did after I read to him and his classmates. He was like, "Can I have a hug?"
I've had that engagement with a lot of boys around the country, that sort of thing happened. They're floored at the impact of the words. Like, "We had no idea words could do that, could make us feel that, could make us feel something, could make this whole auditorium feels something." And then you get boys who are asking, "Hey, can I get that poem written down so I can use it later?" I'm like, "You can buy the book. You can have it all the time."
I'm at Center City Public Charter School in Washington, D.C. The students are watching the Crossover TV series and they're watching the episode that I was in, and then I'm going to walk in the classroom. They don't know I'm here. This is so exciting.
What's up?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Kwame's devoted fan base, of course, includes girls and boys and plenty of adults, anyone who connects with genuine characters and compelling stories, and that devotion is happily reciprocated. Kwame's commitment to supporting his readers goes beyond the pages of his books.
Kwame Alexander:
When I was growing up, my parents used to take me to a lot of poetry readings and book fairs, and there'd be artists and writers coming over to the house. I was just in this environment where the words came off the page. The words were alive, the books were alive, and it just became matter of fact to me. This is just a part of life. This is a part of the artist's way. So I couldn't articulate it how inspirational it was then, but I realize now how inspirational it was. I've sort of operated in that tradition. Sometimes it does take a whole lot, but most of the time, it doesn't take a whole lot for me to just show up for a kid.
So I was living in London during Covid, and I remember somehow I got a fan letter to my London address from a fifth grader in Santa Monica. I was like, "How in the heck did this fifth grader get my address?" And she wrote me this really long, praising letter about my work and how much she loves it, and she thanked me for it and her friends had read the Crossover and Rebound and Booked. In her last paragraph, she said, "But how come you never have any girls as main characters? And we feel you have a responsibility..." And she just went on, I was like, "Dang, who is this kid?" And then she said, "Sorry if this sounds too pushy, sincerely..." And then she wrote her name and then she said, "Note to publisher. If the publisher gets this letter rather than Mr. Kwame Alexander, please send it to him directly and do not sort it as fan mail. This is not fan mail. This is a request letter, something much more than fan mail. Thank you very much."
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Amazing.
Kwame Alexander:
So I had a meeting at Disney, we were working on the Crossover, so I had to fly to LA. So I was like, well, I'll just take an hour and I'll drive over to Santa Monica and I'll surprise her. I'll show up in her classroom. It took two hours of my day. And so that wasn't a great deal of time while I was in LA, but it was in the tradition of me trying to create these environments where young people are inspired like I was inspired. Those times changed my worldview, impacted my life, got me on this journey, and so if there's a way that I can do that for kids, I'm all for it. Plus it inspires me, Jordan. It gets me kind of amped up too.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. What happened when you showed up there?
Kwame Alexander:
So I had gotten her aunt's info online, had done some due diligence. So her aunt and I planned the surprise. So when I showed up in her class, she was pretty floored. I filmed it, but she was pretty floored, couldn't believe it. Her classmates were like, "What? What just happened?" And then she proceeded to say, "So did you read my letter? What do you think?"
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. Like, did you accept my feedback?
Kwame Alexander:
Exactly, exactly. But yeah, I spent like 45 minutes with them, gave away some books, answered some questions. That kind of stuff is real meaningful to me, to let kids know they matter.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. Is that what sparked the Kwame showed up, movement of a man that you started?
Kwame Alexander:
Yeah.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah?
Kwame Alexander:
Well, the first one was in two thousands, maybe 17, and I had shown up at a kid's school in Chapel Hill. His teacher had given me a note the night before at a library, a library event, at a book signing, and I read the note and it was from him. He had never read a book before and he couldn't put it down so I showed up at his school and his reaction was incredible. He just started running up and down the hall screaming. He couldn't believe it. And he went and got all his friends out of class and told them to come out.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
It's not like mind blowing that... I just like the idea that the kids are running around excited to meet an author, to have that... That's very beautiful. It is incredible.
Kwame Alexander:
No, it is. It's a great feeling. It means the world because it's one thing to write a book, it's another thing to know that it's having the kind of impact that you could never have imagined on a kid, and that's what you want.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
It is. It is. And I mean, as a former teacher, I think that getting kids to geek out about reading and writing and poetry is very hard. So what would you say is in your secret sauce?
Kwame Alexander:
Well, I think I'm cool and not in some of this sort of fake old guy cool. I just feel like I'm in touch with the kid in me, and I'm authentic and real in that respect. I'm not trying to write for a certain age. I'm just trying to write for the kid in Kwame, what I would've loved to have read when I was that age, and simultaneously what I love to read now. So I think I'm just being real. I'm telling my story. I think Nikki Giovanni calls it dancing naked on the floor. I am unafraid, I'm doing my dance, and if you like it, great, if you don't, go home. So yeah, I'm just being me and I guess I don't feel like I can go wrong if I'm just being me.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
So good. So good. You are definitely just being you. And for you, Kwame, you have had this extremely extensive career and you could rest on your laurels right now and keep doing your dance, but I suspect that that is not your plan, so what are some of your next big goals? What's coming up for you?
Kwame Alexander:
There's quite a few things that, from a business standpoint, I'd still love to do, but most importantly, I just want to work on being a better human being. I know that sounds cliche, but I just want to sort of figure out that. In the way that I figured out my business life, I want to have a little bit more understanding and control and vision when it comes to my personal life, which I think is why the memoir served as a great door opener for that, the beginning of that journey. But I got more stories to tell and I got different ways I want to tell those stories, whether they be on stage or on the big screen or in a book. So I definitely want to explore that.
One of my biggest dreams, and this is something that I think will be sort of the thing that a big part of, hopefully, my legacy, is to build a writing retreat center. I do a lot of writing retreats at my house and just different places, and I want to have a place where I can have people come and it's on the water. See, I got some dreams, Jordan. I got some dreams.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
You definitely have those. And on the topic of building up new writers, I'm also aware of another TV project that you have upcoming.
Kwame Alexander:
I'm producing a TV show called America's Next Great Author. Six writers living in a house for 30 days, and they have to finish a novel, 50,000 words. And the way we choose the six writers is we go around the country and we hold American Idol style auditions, and people come to these auditions and they get 60 seconds to pitch their book to a panel of judges. So we're in sort of development stage now, and the goal is to shoot season one next year. We shot a proof of concept where we had four pretty amazing judges, David Sterry, Jason Reynolds, Marga, and Victoria Christopher Murray, and it was amazing. We had 800 writers audition and we chose 75 finalists who all flew to Newark for the American Idol style audition, and it was pretty phenomenal. So working on that, developing that.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
That's cool.
Kwame Alexander:
It's going to be a lot of fun.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Talk about celebrating authors and elevating and celebrating authors. That's amazing.
Kwame Alexander:
Oh, I like that. Celebrating and elevating. I like that.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
And as a fellow podcaster, I would be remiss if I didn't let Kwame plug his own upcoming podcast based on his memoir, Why Father's Cry At Night.
Kwame Alexander:
September 24th is my dad's birthday, he'll be 82, and so launching a podcast called Why Fathers Cry. And every Sunday, each week I interview, have a conversation with a different father
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
As a small stop on his quest to inspire the next generation of writers, Kwame's reading and writing challenge, Blackout, is all about using your own creativity.
Kwame Alexander:
Your favorite book, one page, photocopy it, blackout some of the words, leave only the words that you want, that will then create a poem when you read them. It's a blackout poem.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
You can find more details about Kwame's Reading Challenge and all past reading challenges from authors such as Jacqueline Woodson, Meg Medina and John Klassen at thereadingculturepod.com. This episode's Beans Stack featured librarian is Kirsten Weaver, the programming specialist for the Indianapolis Public Library. She had some heartwarming stories to share about a book club she runs for teens at a residential treatment facility.
Kirsten Weaver:
I do a book club at a residential treatment facility where the kids are all court mandated there. Some of them are good readers, some of them aren't the best readers, and that's okay. We read out loud and we read together and we discuss as we go. One of my favorite stories is one of our kids was struggling, and I opened my mouth to say, "It's okay. Take your time. It's going to be good," And before I could say it, one of the other kids did. They said, "Slow down, take your time, we'll wait," And the rest of the kids in the class echoed it and said, "Yeah, we're not going anywhere." They were so supportive of the other kid. That was awesome. I also love the fact that this book club that I do, we actually get to give the kids the books, they get to keep them after, and a lot of these kids have never owned a book before in their life.
When I tell them that they can keep the books at the beginning of the year that we read when we finish them, they're shocked because nobody's ever given them books to keep. And they not only keep them, but when they get passes home, they'll take them home and give them to siblings or parents to read so that when they go home the next time, they can talk about the books, and they go back and the kids who aren't part of the book club, they will share the books with those kids so that they can then talk to them about it. And I love the fact that we're instilling this love of reading so much that they're encouraging them and without even asking them to spread it, and they are sharing that love of reading that they're developing.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
This has been The Reading Culture, and you've been listening to our conversation with Kwame Alexander. Again, I'm your host, Jordan Lloyd Bookey, and currently, I'm reading Crook Manifesto by Colston Whitehead and a First Time for Everything by Dan Santat. If you enjoy today's show, please show some love and give us a five-star review. It just takes a second, and it really helps us. To learn more about how you can help grow your community's reading culture, you can check out all of our resources at beanstack.com, and remember to sign up for our newsletter at TheReadingCulturepod.com/newsletter for special offers and bonus content. This episode was produced by Jackie Lamport and Lower Street Media and script edited by Josiah Lamberto Egan. Thanks for joining and keep reading.
Oh, you're still here? Well, in this episode, we have a bit of an after show. Here's a question I asked Kwame earlier in the interview, but it seemed a little risque to include upfront. Listen at your own risk. I'm wondering also what your love life was like in middle and high school because, okay, first of all...
Kwame Alexander:
You're up in my business.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Here's why. Because all your books, there's always a little side or central story that is very important, and I found it very interesting to read Why Fathers Cry At Night and then go back and reread. I'd already read because I would oftentimes read a lot of books with Cassius, and to go back and reread, I'm like, "Oh, he was working some stuff out here, now that I'm coming back," If I'm psychoanalyzing you. But for real, I did wonder, did you have girlfriends and stuff like that? Because it feels very authentic.
Kwame Alexander:
I had desire, I had longing. I mean, I was a romantic kid. So when I was eight or nine or 10, there was a girl in New York. I took a liking to her and one day I remember just waking up and just staring at the ceiling, 10 years old and just saying, "I'm in love." I remember just debating, "How are you going to let her know?" And I remember calling my parents or going in my parents' room and saying, "Look, guys, I'm in love and I need to go spend some time with this girl, so can I please go and stay over at her house?" I don't think I said it like that, Jordan, but I do remember that weekend or that night or something, I was at her house and I spent the night, and we were friends of course so I slept on the floor next to her bed, and I remember her saying... You might have to bleep this out at some point on The Reading Culture podcast people. She said, "Can you come and..." I can't even say it. It's so silly.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
What'd she say?
Kwame Alexander:
She said, "Kwame..." I think I said, "I like you," And she said, "If you like me, come and suck my toes." Like, you got to bleep that out.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
I did not expect you to say that.
Kwame Alexander:
Right, right.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh my. Oh God.
Kwame Alexander:
But my point was...
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Go on.
Kwame Alexander:
She was a little fast.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
I mean, yeah, nine years old.
Kwame Alexander:
I was like, I don't know if I can handle this. I may not be ready for love, for real love. But no. But I just had these experiences where I just liked people a lot, and when I liked them a lot, it moved me. I had a lot of interest and a lot of crushes, not a whole lot of reciprocation, which of course makes you long and desire even more so I listened to a lot of love songs and read a lot of love poems to sort of tied me over.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. You're a poet. I read this out loud last night when I was like... I read this, The Door Of No Return, but I was rereading. I'm like, "You know what? This poem called Ama, "If you were a mango, I would peel you, keep you for myself, then reveal you," I'm like, this is hot stuff. As I was reading, I say, "Cassius, when you read this one, what were you thinking?" I'm trying to get information from him, and I'm like, this is the most beautiful thing ever.
Kwame Alexander:
Yeah. Love has always been a thing for me, as you know, reading Why Fathers Cry At Night. Just trying to figure out, reconcile, understand, do better.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. Let's move a little into your... I kind of want to know if you sucked her toes. I have to ask.
Kwame Alexander:
Oh my gosh, you can't ask me that. It's enough for me to say it, now to have to answer it? I can't answer that. Question number two, let's move on.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh my God.
I am just being real. I'm telling my story. I think Nikki Giovanni calls it dancing naked on the floor. I am unafraid and I'm doing my dance and if you like it, great, if you don't, go home. So yeah, I'm just being me and I guess I don't feel like I can go wrong if I'm just being me.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Kwame Alexander's stories and characters ring with remarkable authenticity. Kids and parents around the country and really around the world are his mega fans, and that includes yours truly. Kwame has become a beacon for genuine representation, particularly for young black boys, and he does it by simply being honest. Kwame is renowned for his books, the Crossover, the Undefeated, the Door of No Return, and numerous other novels, picture books and poetry collections. He recently authored his memoir, Why Fathers Cry At Night. His exceptional work has earned him prestigious awards, including the Newberry Medal and Coretta Scott King book award, and this year the crossover was adapted into a Disney plus original TV series. In this episode, Kwame discusses growing up in a family steeped in black storytelling and literature, tells us how he came very close to ending up as a biochemist and reveals the secret to making middle schoolers think he's cool. He'll also tell us about the letter that was specifically not fan mail, which inspired a surprise visit to an unsuspecting student. Oh, and hot tip, stick around until the very end for a hilarious bonus track.
My name is Jordan Lloyd Bookey, and this is The Reading Culture, a show where we speak with authors and illustrators to explore ways to build a stronger culture of reading in our communities. We dive into their personal experiences, their inspirations, and why their stories and ideas motivate kids to read more. Make sure to check us out on Instagram for giveaways at The Reading Culture Pod, and you can also subscribe to our newsletter at thereadingculturepod.com/newsletter. All right, onto the show.
As a glasses wearer, you have an amazing stable of glasses. So before we get into your life and times of Kwame Alexander, let's talk about your glasses versus your shoes. Do you feel that your glasses game or your shoe game is stronger?
Kwame Alexander:
First of all, thank you for having me on your brilliant podcast, and I wish your awesome listeners could hear you or could see you because you got the fly glasses on right now.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Whatever. I had to decide. See, I had a few other pairs, like, "Which ones am I going to wear for Kwame?"
Kwame Alexander:
But this is a podcast, like who...
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
I know, but we're on video.
Kwame Alexander:
It's true. And plus, in order to sound good, you got to look good so I get it. It was an eyeglass thing for me before it became a shoe thing. I'm still figuring out my shoe game, but once I realized that I couldn't see, I said, "Well..." And at the same time, my sort of hair was... I had these long locks and my hair was falling out as it were. It's like, okay, so maybe I'm going to go bald, so if I'm going to wear glasses, they need to make a statement because that's the only thing on my head that's going to matter. So yeah, it's definitely eyewear. The shoe thing is much more difficult because I wear size 16, so where can I find the fly shoes? And I'm getting older, so where can I find the fly shoes that feel comfortable?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Those orthopedic fly shoes.
Kwame Alexander:
Yeah, okay.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
That doesn't go together.
Kwame Alexander:
It doesn't.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Okay, Kwame. We're going to start the interview for real now, so prepare. All right. You've spoken a lot about your mom and her influence on you, and I want to hear about that. I first want to acknowledge that today, as we are recording, is September 1st, and that is actually the anniversary of her passing I read. So first I just want to know how you're celebrating her life today.
Kwame Alexander:
Well, I appreciate that. I'm on Folly Beach in Charleston, South Carolina, a place she really loved. We spent time here as a family, just vacationing and stuff, and she loved to sit outside in the morning and listen to the ocean. So I had planned this trip for my siblings, their families, my dad, but didn't really think about the fact that it was the anniversary of my mom's passing. I literally didn't think that Jordan. I was like, "I'm just going to get a beach house because it's the end of the summer, it's Labor Day weekend, let's just all get together." And then a couple weeks ago, I think I was being interviewed and someone casually mentioned, "Well, your anniversary of your mom's passing is coming up." And they asked sort of a similar question that you just asked and it hit me, oh snap, I'm going to be on Folly Beach with my family.
So in a way, it was sort of like her having her hand in my life again, just sort of, whether you believe in the universe, the creator, whomever you believe in, the ancestors have an impact on us, I think she probably has something to do with me being here, but I'm here to celebrate her, I'm probably going to do a walk on the beach and just reflect and try to think about all the precious memories. But yeah, just to be with my dad and my sisters and sort of just connect and engage with them, I'm sure that'll be comforting.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. That sounds very nice. Can you talk a bit about the influence that your mom had on you as a reader?
Kwame Alexander:
I think it's fitting that I'm here on the anniversary of the passing of my mother and I'm on this podcast called The Reading Culture. That's fitting because she was one half of the duo that instituted this reading culture in our home, in our lives. Books were so much a part of our existence and story, the power of story. So my mom was a storyteller, an official storyteller. She went to the National Storyteller Conventions.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Amazing.
Kwame Alexander:
And so, she used to tell us we were her practice audience. The Beautiful Girl With No Teeth or Moja Means One. I mean, she's constantly telling us these stories that I still know verbatim to this day. And so, that was always exciting to be able to hear and see someone perform theatrically in your bedroom at bedtime. Bedtime stories really came alive. The read aloud, reader's theater, folk tales, they were a part of our lives on a daily basis, bedtime, breakfast table, in the car, so it was always very informal and then sometimes it was formal. She would do storytelling at church in Sunday school, and so it just became a part of our lives and we all became adept at being able to share our words, to find our voice and to lift them up. It was just a part of us, man, and my mom and dad, they played their roles in that, in making that happen.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. It sounds like your dad played... Well, you had so many books in your house, I love that story about the garage. Just, I think, the visual for me of you having all these books and just having so many books, like they're everywhere. I read this article once about the negative of decluttering, I guess. Everybody was obsessed with Marie Kondo and declutter your house and make everything neat and what have you but the flip of that is that you probably would never get the experience you had in that garage, right? Where there's just stuff to explore.
Kwame Alexander:
Yeah. I mean, when I was in the garage, I could come across an old report card from my dad's, a newspaper clipping from the Air Force when he played basketball, a book of poems, a novel, just so much stuff, like information, and I just found myself being really curious and inquisitive and reading everything. A lot of cosmetology books because he was a barber in the Air Force, so how to cut hair, just random stuff. And so, I just soaked it all in and soaked it all up and it definitely contributed to me having a certain level of familiarity with books and a certain comfortability around books and literature because I had been exposed to every genre from very easy reading, poetry, to war and peace, everything was there.
The time will come when with elation, you will greet yourself arriving at your own door, in your own mirror, and each will smile at the other's welcome and say, "Sit here, eat." You will love again the stranger who was yourself. Give wine, give bread, give back your heart to itself, to the stranger who has loved you all your life, whom you ignored for another, who knows you by heart. Take down the love letters from the bookshelf, the photographs, the desperate notes, peel your own image from the mirror, sit, feast on your life.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Love After Love can be found in Derek Walcott's collection, Collected Poems, 1948 to 1984. Walcott, a Nobel Prize-winning Caribbean poet, playwright, and essayist who was known for his bold explorations of life and cultural heritage through philosophical and metaphorically laced writing. A young Kwame was on his way to a very non-literary career when he encountered Walcott's work and that discovery hit like a lightning bolt forever altering the course of his life.
Kwame Alexander:
My dad was a book publisher and I worked for him most of my child and young adult life, and from time to time, he would take me to conferences or trade shows and I'd be in charge of selling the books, working the table. And so, there was a big conference happening in London, I think it was 1987, it was called The Third World Radical Black Book Publishers Convention or something. It was publishers of black literature from around the world basically. And so, I didn't really want to go to work, but I wanted to go to London. Then we got to the book fair and my dad was doing workshops and teaching and mingling and doing deals, and I was working the table and meeting different people and selling these books by Alice Walker and Cheikh Anta Diop and Chancellor Williams and Frantz Fanon and Pearl Cleage and just, ah, and meeting so many cool people.
I remember somebody said, "I met this woman..." Because there's always a woman in the story. I met this woman and we kind of flirted and I was maybe a sophomore in college, maybe she was a grad student. I was way in over my head. And she invited me to a play that night. And so we went to see this play called Beef, No Chicken, and it was a play by Derek Walcott, the St. Lucian poet.
And I remember just being blown away by it. And I remember going back and asking my dad, "Why don't we sell Derek Walcott's books?" And then I ended up going to a bookstore or to another publisher's table and finding one of his poetry books and I remember reading this poem called Love After Love, and I was just like, "Whoa. That was incredible." And the next night, I went to this Caribbean restaurant and the Nigerian novelist, Ben Okri was there and I had just seen his book, The Famished Road, and I was just in this whole writerly world as a sophomore in college and I was floored by it and inspired by it and so excited to be in it, and I think that trip to London began my journey away from biochemistry.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah, you were a biochemistry major?
Kwame Alexander:
Yeah, and headed towards writing.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
That's wild. Yeah. It's interesting because you really grew up with books. So reading, something about that, what? Just being in that milieu or whatever, just really sealed it for you? I mean, you were taking these classes...
Kwame Alexander:
Oh yeah because I was taking chemistry and biochem and physics, but something about that London trip and reading these poets and seeing that play and meeting other artists and just being in that mix, it affected me, and I wanted... I've been, in a way, for the past 30 years, I've been trying to recreate that moment, what in various, these varied experiences that I've had, it's all about creating the energy and the inspiration of that moment where you felt like your responsibility was to find your voice, lift your voice up, do something meaningful with your voice, and enjoy that experience to the fullest.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Quick detour. Back when this podcast was still just an idea on a napkin, I had a lot of discussions with my kids about the authors that inspired them the most. Cassius immediately thought of Kwame, but he said, "Well, you won't be able to get him," But like I told him, never underestimate the power of a mother. As the mother of a middle school boy, I think Kwame's work is so important. This is a crucial age for developing emotional skills, and it's a bit of a magic window when there's a real opportunity to show boys how essential it is to be a complex human, including showing tenderness or sadness or any of the soft feelings, boys are oftentimes trained to stifle or to hide. Meanwhile, their demographic is commonly put in the category of reluctant readers. But one thing I hear repeatedly from teachers is that Kwame's books are different. They get boys excited to read and even to read about, yes, you guessed it, feelings. I wanted to know how Kwame thinks about writing for this audience and why his approach works so well.
Kwame Alexander:
I feel like middle school is such an important time for us to nurture and develop the kind of boys we want to grow into beautiful men, and I think in sixth, seventh and eighth grade, we have an opportunity to sort of change the narrative in how boys interact and engage and how we think about them. I feel like part of my responsibility with my books is to create characters that represent and reflect the kind of boy I was and some of the boys that I engaged with, and that it's okay and it's cool to be sensitive, to be thoughtful, to be loving. Those are cool things. It's okay to write a poem.
It's okay to do some of these things that we generally haven't shown boys that it's okay to do or be. I was in Kenya recently and I remember talking to some of the Kenyan men and I was like, "Is it okay? Do y'all cry here as men?" And one of the men was like, "Oh, no. No, we don't cry. We have never cried. We have never cried. We were beaten." And they talked how they were beaten as boys if they cried because it just showed weakness. And so I think part of my job is to show a different side of masculinity as I grow into becoming a better father, son, lover. I feel like part of my job is to help show another side. So I just create characters that are authentic to me, that I care about, that are me, based on me and my friends, and hopefully boys will connect with it and they'll do what this kid named Woody in Brian, Texas did after I read to him and his classmates. He was like, "Can I have a hug?"
I've had that engagement with a lot of boys around the country, that sort of thing happened. They're floored at the impact of the words. Like, "We had no idea words could do that, could make us feel that, could make us feel something, could make this whole auditorium feels something." And then you get boys who are asking, "Hey, can I get that poem written down so I can use it later?" I'm like, "You can buy the book. You can have it all the time."
I'm at Center City Public Charter School in Washington, D.C. The students are watching the Crossover TV series and they're watching the episode that I was in, and then I'm going to walk in the classroom. They don't know I'm here. This is so exciting.
What's up?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Kwame's devoted fan base, of course, includes girls and boys and plenty of adults, anyone who connects with genuine characters and compelling stories, and that devotion is happily reciprocated. Kwame's commitment to supporting his readers goes beyond the pages of his books.
Kwame Alexander:
When I was growing up, my parents used to take me to a lot of poetry readings and book fairs, and there'd be artists and writers coming over to the house. I was just in this environment where the words came off the page. The words were alive, the books were alive, and it just became matter of fact to me. This is just a part of life. This is a part of the artist's way. So I couldn't articulate it how inspirational it was then, but I realize now how inspirational it was. I've sort of operated in that tradition. Sometimes it does take a whole lot, but most of the time, it doesn't take a whole lot for me to just show up for a kid.
So I was living in London during Covid, and I remember somehow I got a fan letter to my London address from a fifth grader in Santa Monica. I was like, "How in the heck did this fifth grader get my address?" And she wrote me this really long, praising letter about my work and how much she loves it, and she thanked me for it and her friends had read the Crossover and Rebound and Booked. In her last paragraph, she said, "But how come you never have any girls as main characters? And we feel you have a responsibility..." And she just went on, I was like, "Dang, who is this kid?" And then she said, "Sorry if this sounds too pushy, sincerely..." And then she wrote her name and then she said, "Note to publisher. If the publisher gets this letter rather than Mr. Kwame Alexander, please send it to him directly and do not sort it as fan mail. This is not fan mail. This is a request letter, something much more than fan mail. Thank you very much."
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Amazing.
Kwame Alexander:
So I had a meeting at Disney, we were working on the Crossover, so I had to fly to LA. So I was like, well, I'll just take an hour and I'll drive over to Santa Monica and I'll surprise her. I'll show up in her classroom. It took two hours of my day. And so that wasn't a great deal of time while I was in LA, but it was in the tradition of me trying to create these environments where young people are inspired like I was inspired. Those times changed my worldview, impacted my life, got me on this journey, and so if there's a way that I can do that for kids, I'm all for it. Plus it inspires me, Jordan. It gets me kind of amped up too.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. What happened when you showed up there?
Kwame Alexander:
So I had gotten her aunt's info online, had done some due diligence. So her aunt and I planned the surprise. So when I showed up in her class, she was pretty floored. I filmed it, but she was pretty floored, couldn't believe it. Her classmates were like, "What? What just happened?" And then she proceeded to say, "So did you read my letter? What do you think?"
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. Like, did you accept my feedback?
Kwame Alexander:
Exactly, exactly. But yeah, I spent like 45 minutes with them, gave away some books, answered some questions. That kind of stuff is real meaningful to me, to let kids know they matter.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. Is that what sparked the Kwame showed up, movement of a man that you started?
Kwame Alexander:
Yeah.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah?
Kwame Alexander:
Well, the first one was in two thousands, maybe 17, and I had shown up at a kid's school in Chapel Hill. His teacher had given me a note the night before at a library, a library event, at a book signing, and I read the note and it was from him. He had never read a book before and he couldn't put it down so I showed up at his school and his reaction was incredible. He just started running up and down the hall screaming. He couldn't believe it. And he went and got all his friends out of class and told them to come out.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
It's not like mind blowing that... I just like the idea that the kids are running around excited to meet an author, to have that... That's very beautiful. It is incredible.
Kwame Alexander:
No, it is. It's a great feeling. It means the world because it's one thing to write a book, it's another thing to know that it's having the kind of impact that you could never have imagined on a kid, and that's what you want.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
It is. It is. And I mean, as a former teacher, I think that getting kids to geek out about reading and writing and poetry is very hard. So what would you say is in your secret sauce?
Kwame Alexander:
Well, I think I'm cool and not in some of this sort of fake old guy cool. I just feel like I'm in touch with the kid in me, and I'm authentic and real in that respect. I'm not trying to write for a certain age. I'm just trying to write for the kid in Kwame, what I would've loved to have read when I was that age, and simultaneously what I love to read now. So I think I'm just being real. I'm telling my story. I think Nikki Giovanni calls it dancing naked on the floor. I am unafraid, I'm doing my dance, and if you like it, great, if you don't, go home. So yeah, I'm just being me and I guess I don't feel like I can go wrong if I'm just being me.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
So good. So good. You are definitely just being you. And for you, Kwame, you have had this extremely extensive career and you could rest on your laurels right now and keep doing your dance, but I suspect that that is not your plan, so what are some of your next big goals? What's coming up for you?
Kwame Alexander:
There's quite a few things that, from a business standpoint, I'd still love to do, but most importantly, I just want to work on being a better human being. I know that sounds cliche, but I just want to sort of figure out that. In the way that I figured out my business life, I want to have a little bit more understanding and control and vision when it comes to my personal life, which I think is why the memoir served as a great door opener for that, the beginning of that journey. But I got more stories to tell and I got different ways I want to tell those stories, whether they be on stage or on the big screen or in a book. So I definitely want to explore that.
One of my biggest dreams, and this is something that I think will be sort of the thing that a big part of, hopefully, my legacy, is to build a writing retreat center. I do a lot of writing retreats at my house and just different places, and I want to have a place where I can have people come and it's on the water. See, I got some dreams, Jordan. I got some dreams.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
You definitely have those. And on the topic of building up new writers, I'm also aware of another TV project that you have upcoming.
Kwame Alexander:
I'm producing a TV show called America's Next Great Author. Six writers living in a house for 30 days, and they have to finish a novel, 50,000 words. And the way we choose the six writers is we go around the country and we hold American Idol style auditions, and people come to these auditions and they get 60 seconds to pitch their book to a panel of judges. So we're in sort of development stage now, and the goal is to shoot season one next year. We shot a proof of concept where we had four pretty amazing judges, David Sterry, Jason Reynolds, Marga, and Victoria Christopher Murray, and it was amazing. We had 800 writers audition and we chose 75 finalists who all flew to Newark for the American Idol style audition, and it was pretty phenomenal. So working on that, developing that.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
That's cool.
Kwame Alexander:
It's going to be a lot of fun.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Talk about celebrating authors and elevating and celebrating authors. That's amazing.
Kwame Alexander:
Oh, I like that. Celebrating and elevating. I like that.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
And as a fellow podcaster, I would be remiss if I didn't let Kwame plug his own upcoming podcast based on his memoir, Why Father's Cry At Night.
Kwame Alexander:
September 24th is my dad's birthday, he'll be 82, and so launching a podcast called Why Fathers Cry. And every Sunday, each week I interview, have a conversation with a different father
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
As a small stop on his quest to inspire the next generation of writers, Kwame's reading and writing challenge, Blackout, is all about using your own creativity.
Kwame Alexander:
Your favorite book, one page, photocopy it, blackout some of the words, leave only the words that you want, that will then create a poem when you read them. It's a blackout poem.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
You can find more details about Kwame's Reading Challenge and all past reading challenges from authors such as Jacqueline Woodson, Meg Medina and John Klassen at thereadingculturepod.com. This episode's Beans Stack featured librarian is Kirsten Weaver, the programming specialist for the Indianapolis Public Library. She had some heartwarming stories to share about a book club she runs for teens at a residential treatment facility.
Kirsten Weaver:
I do a book club at a residential treatment facility where the kids are all court mandated there. Some of them are good readers, some of them aren't the best readers, and that's okay. We read out loud and we read together and we discuss as we go. One of my favorite stories is one of our kids was struggling, and I opened my mouth to say, "It's okay. Take your time. It's going to be good," And before I could say it, one of the other kids did. They said, "Slow down, take your time, we'll wait," And the rest of the kids in the class echoed it and said, "Yeah, we're not going anywhere." They were so supportive of the other kid. That was awesome. I also love the fact that this book club that I do, we actually get to give the kids the books, they get to keep them after, and a lot of these kids have never owned a book before in their life.
When I tell them that they can keep the books at the beginning of the year that we read when we finish them, they're shocked because nobody's ever given them books to keep. And they not only keep them, but when they get passes home, they'll take them home and give them to siblings or parents to read so that when they go home the next time, they can talk about the books, and they go back and the kids who aren't part of the book club, they will share the books with those kids so that they can then talk to them about it. And I love the fact that we're instilling this love of reading so much that they're encouraging them and without even asking them to spread it, and they are sharing that love of reading that they're developing.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
This has been The Reading Culture, and you've been listening to our conversation with Kwame Alexander. Again, I'm your host, Jordan Lloyd Bookey, and currently, I'm reading Crook Manifesto by Colston Whitehead and a First Time for Everything by Dan Santat. If you enjoy today's show, please show some love and give us a five-star review. It just takes a second, and it really helps us. To learn more about how you can help grow your community's reading culture, you can check out all of our resources at beanstack.com, and remember to sign up for our newsletter at TheReadingCulturepod.com/newsletter for special offers and bonus content. This episode was produced by Jackie Lamport and Lower Street Media and script edited by Josiah Lamberto Egan. Thanks for joining and keep reading.
Oh, you're still here? Well, in this episode, we have a bit of an after show. Here's a question I asked Kwame earlier in the interview, but it seemed a little risque to include upfront. Listen at your own risk. I'm wondering also what your love life was like in middle and high school because, okay, first of all...
Kwame Alexander:
You're up in my business.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Here's why. Because all your books, there's always a little side or central story that is very important, and I found it very interesting to read Why Fathers Cry At Night and then go back and reread. I'd already read because I would oftentimes read a lot of books with Cassius, and to go back and reread, I'm like, "Oh, he was working some stuff out here, now that I'm coming back," If I'm psychoanalyzing you. But for real, I did wonder, did you have girlfriends and stuff like that? Because it feels very authentic.
Kwame Alexander:
I had desire, I had longing. I mean, I was a romantic kid. So when I was eight or nine or 10, there was a girl in New York. I took a liking to her and one day I remember just waking up and just staring at the ceiling, 10 years old and just saying, "I'm in love." I remember just debating, "How are you going to let her know?" And I remember calling my parents or going in my parents' room and saying, "Look, guys, I'm in love and I need to go spend some time with this girl, so can I please go and stay over at her house?" I don't think I said it like that, Jordan, but I do remember that weekend or that night or something, I was at her house and I spent the night, and we were friends of course so I slept on the floor next to her bed, and I remember her saying... You might have to bleep this out at some point on The Reading Culture podcast people. She said, "Can you come and..." I can't even say it. It's so silly.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
What'd she say?
Kwame Alexander:
She said, "Kwame..." I think I said, "I like you," And she said, "If you like me, come and suck my toes." Like, you got to bleep that out.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
I did not expect you to say that.
Kwame Alexander:
Right, right.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh my. Oh God.
Kwame Alexander:
But my point was...
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Go on.
Kwame Alexander:
She was a little fast.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
I mean, yeah, nine years old.
Kwame Alexander:
I was like, I don't know if I can handle this. I may not be ready for love, for real love. But no. But I just had these experiences where I just liked people a lot, and when I liked them a lot, it moved me. I had a lot of interest and a lot of crushes, not a whole lot of reciprocation, which of course makes you long and desire even more so I listened to a lot of love songs and read a lot of love poems to sort of tied me over.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. You're a poet. I read this out loud last night when I was like... I read this, The Door Of No Return, but I was rereading. I'm like, "You know what? This poem called Ama, "If you were a mango, I would peel you, keep you for myself, then reveal you," I'm like, this is hot stuff. As I was reading, I say, "Cassius, when you read this one, what were you thinking?" I'm trying to get information from him, and I'm like, this is the most beautiful thing ever.
Kwame Alexander:
Yeah. Love has always been a thing for me, as you know, reading Why Fathers Cry At Night. Just trying to figure out, reconcile, understand, do better.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. Let's move a little into your... I kind of want to know if you sucked her toes. I have to ask.
Kwame Alexander:
Oh my gosh, you can't ask me that. It's enough for me to say it, now to have to answer it? I can't answer that. Question number two, let's move on.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh my God.