The Second Chapter: Nic Stone

Nic Stone: It's important that my perspective stay flexible because my perspective could need updating. It could need to be changed based on new information.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: We're always changing even when we think we've arrived. We shed old versions of ourselves and stretch toward new ones. Yet, when a chorus of outside voices snipes at us to stay in our lane, how do we find the resolve to change our jobs, our beliefs, or our self image? Nick Stone is a number one New York Times bestselling author whose young adult books like Dear Martin, Chaos Theory, and Clean Getaway explore the nuances of racism, power, and mental illness with clarity and compassion. Her latest novel, Boom Town, marks a bold new chapter.

It's her first book for adults. It's a story about women, survival, and social power centered on a renowned Atlanta strip club where Nick herself has spent some time as we'll hear in a moment. Today, Nick returns for what we call the second chapter in which I sit down with guests we loved the first time and get them to dig deeper into topics where they have valuable perspective. In this episode, Nick talks about the courage to take risks and what happens when you stop asking permission to evolve as a person. She shares how reading Boomtown helped her father see himself differently, why she believes curiosity matters more than certainty, and how sometimes you get so angry that you gotta write an unadulterated rage letter and then literally torch it to find forgiveness.

My name is Jordan Lloyd Bookie and this is the reading culture a show where we speak with diverse authors about ways to build a stronger culture of reading in our communities. We dive deep into their personal experiences and inspirations. Our show is made possible by Beanstack, the leading solution for motivating people to read more. Learn more at beanstack.com, and make sure to check us out on Instagram at the reading culture pod and subscribe to our newsletter for bonus content at thereadingculturepod.com forward / newsletter. Alright.

On to the show.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: I saw Nikki Giovanni in Atlanta. I went to Emory for one year, and she was speaking. I went to see her, like, in the big chapel. She spoke, and it was, like, a life changing experience. And she showed us all her thug life tattoo and, you know, it was just really, like she really, like, knocked open the door for me.

Nic Stone: By the way, like, we're talking about Nikki Giovanni because she's on my shirt.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Because she's on Nick's shirt, which no

Nic Stone: one can see. Yes. Young Nikki. Young Nikki.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Alright. We're gonna talk I have a lot of things. I kinda I have a lot of questions. I guess we can start with, like, you are this known love middle grade You author, and then there's this, I would imagine, like, pressures from the book world and then also maybe, like, personally to stay in that lane. And just wanna talk a little bit about that tension that maybe you experienced in stepping out there with BoomTown.

Nic Stone: I mean, I didn't experience any tension. I'm a do what I wanna do. Truly. Like, I have always known that I wanted to tell stories in as many mediums and spaces as possible, and I will not stop until I feel like I have accomplished that mission. So every time somebody asks about my, quote unquote transition, I correct them and I say it's it's an expansion.

It's not a transition. Like, my next two books are there's a June 26 book coming. That's You. That is, like, the third one that I've written with friends. That's Breakout.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Oh, yeah.

Nic Stone: And then October 2026 is a new middle grade.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Okay.

Nic Stone: So just adding some lanes to my highway. Yeah. We are known for the things that we actually show people. So if you don't show a person something about yourself, you can't possibly be known for it. And I am deeply and powerfully committed to being myself in every space that I enter largely because I think that it empowers other people to be precisely who they are in the spaces that they enter.

Mhmm. And I think that's how you make the world better. Right? Like, you create room for people to be human. For me, it's all about telling stories where people get to see the humanity of other people, especially people that they have been conditioned to believe are less human.

And yeah, no. Like, we're gonna fix the world by being less apologetic about our humanity.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: You always show up exactly as who you are. And I I remember or listened to our last conversation, and that's a through line for you because that's always been true. And I wonder, have you ever had a moment where you felt like you were not fully yourself or, like, where you needed to, you know, to break free?

Nic Stone: I would not say that I've consciously experienced this sense of, like, oh, no. I'm not being fully myself. I need to do something different. But if I feel stifled, I cannot help but be like, oh, no. I'm not.

I don't like this. Right? Like, I have no problem leaving places and people that make me feel small. For me, the most important thing is to be a bearer of space for people to exist as themselves. And if there is anything happening around me that I feel like prevents me from accomplishing that mission, it's gotta go.

And this comes from my mom. My mom has always just been herself. She's never gonna apologize for being herself, and she's never gonna explain herself. Yeah. And I think that, like, there are people, obviously, that I have no like, if I am in relationship with another person and I have something that I have said or done or some way that I move lands for them in a way that not necessarily, like, feels offensive, but feels harmful or hurtful, we can have a conversation.

But, like, I never, like, came out. Like, I just am, and I never really felt a need to explain myself to anybody. And part of that, I think, is me wanting to help other people understand that, like, you are not obligated to explain yourself to anybody, me included. Right?

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Nick's certainty in who she is didn't appear overnight. As she said, it came from her mom, someone who never apologized for being herself. Still, even with that foundation, Nick admits that expansion can feel messy. Growth often asks her to shed old versions of herself and step into something unknown.

Nic Stone: I have like at least two existential crises a year.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Okay. Tell us about one.

Nic Stone: Let's see. The most recent well, I turned 40 in July. Actually, Like, just after midnight on my birthday, I, like I don't know. I don't know what happened, but I, like, broke up with my partner. It the breakup lasted maybe six hours Okay.

Because partner was like, girl, bye. Stop it. Like, this is not a thing we're doing. But I had this whole, like, reckoning where I was like, wait. Hold on.

Like, I know I say I'm 19 with twenty one years of experience, but, like, I'm actually not. So that was a whole crisis. A whole crisis. And, like, I've come to it's like there's the crisis, and then you settle in, and then you transition to, like, this other space. It's like an inflection point.

And I feel like I'm after BoomTown has come out, and it is a totally different experience. Totally different. And I'm like, oh, I think I like it over here too. Like, I just the person that I have bloomed into. And the risk part was the self exposure.

So, like, it it wasn't even necessarily shifting to a different age category because after writing BoomTown, I then wrote the middle there's a middle grade novel coming out next year, and it is probably the best thing I've ever written. Totally it's not even like it's different from what I've done before because there's, like, verse involved. Most people don't even know I write poetry. Like, it's things like that where I'm I'm stepping into and feel like I no longer am seeking permission to be my, like, most full self. I am the most chaotic person I know.

Like, constant chaos theory is a manifesto, but I'm not bothered by it. Like, it's not like like I don't feel any shame over it. I don't feel any guilt over like like, why? Why would I? Like, this is how my brain works.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: I wanna go back to something you said about BoomTown. Like, part of your expansion was, like, feeling like there was this level of self exposure.

Nic Stone: Mhmm.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: And can you just say a little bit more about what you meant about that? That's been sticking with me since you said it.

Nic Stone: So I'm grown. Mhmm. I have two kids. Like, I do grown people things. Mhmm.

And in the children's literature space, those grown people things have to stay behind the curtain. Yeah. But I just wrote a book about strippers Yeah. Two of whom were in a relationship. And so, like, what's on the page ain't what's in my it's not what's in my middle grade and young adult books.

And, like, I had the moment of, like, oh god, what did I do Yeah. When my dad told me he was listening to the audiobook. And I was like Okay. Oh, okay. This is really uncomfortable.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yes.

Nic Stone: And also, okay. Here we are. Right? Like

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. Like, that's who you are to everybody. Right?

Nic Stone: Jordan was wild, though. He calls me. Right? Like, he's like, you know, Nicole? I I really feel like BoomTown is helping to heal me a little bit.

What? What do you mean helping to

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: heal me?

Nic Stone: He was like Yeah. You know, I I spent a lot of time Mhmm. In in these sorts of places when I was younger. There was one time he tells me this story about and he's by the way, my dad is absolutely fine with me sharing anything that he shares with me. He I need to do a podcast with him.

He is just a gem. So he was saying how, like, there was one time he almost got fired because five days in a row, he called in sick and was kicking it at the blue flame. That's that's one of the strip clubs here. And I'm like, dad, I love the Blue Flame. Okay.

So, like, it's, like, created this new depth of relationship for us. Yeah. But it's not something that would have happened if I refused to go there. Yeah. But it was it was terrifying.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: And you go there in the book. Oh, I go there. It's not like there's everything is not behind the curtain as they say.

Nic Stone: No. We don't fade to black in this space. We don't do that.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: It is like its own risky behavior in some ways. But then when this is the type of author you're I think it was Jason, Jason Reynolds, when he said, like, I'm a children's author, but I'm not a child. There you go. And, like, I think he was talking about he's still creating stuff for kids, but saying, like, I'm doing something different that you don't expect me. I'm gonna make something that's not realistic fiction, and that's because I'm also an artist.

Yeah. You know? And I want and like you're saying, like, you have to be able to live fully. Yes. And it's hard when you're in this, like it's not a pigeonhole per se, but it can be.

You know? There's an attempt to do that, right, if you

Nic Stone: don't fight against it. There's an attempt. Yeah. There's an attempt to pigeonhole. And I think it appears to be more true for women than for men, but, like, we are constantly told that we cannot be more than one thing.

If you are more than one thing, you are automatically too much. But, like, bro, that's a you problem. That don't got shit to do with me. I think what I have come to realize is that, like, if there is an individual or an entity who looks at me or thinks of me and has the words too much come to mind, beloved, I really hope you find less. Yeah.

Right. And that it works for you. But I've hit a point where, like, I just I have no interest in turning down.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. Like you said, you're expanding.

Nic Stone: I'm expanding. So that's like a request

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: to contract. You don't wanna do that.

Nic Stone: But do you approve of it, Harry? Asked the painter, walking up and down the room and biting his lip. You can't approve of it possibly. It is some silly infatuation. I never approve or disapprove of anything now.

It is an absurd attitude to take towards life. We are not sent into the world to air our moral prejudices. I never take notice of any of what common people say, and I never interfere with what charming people do. If a personality fascinates me, whatever mode of expression that personality selects is absolutely delightful to me. Dorian Gray falls in love with a beautiful girl who acts like Juliet and proposes to marry her.

Why not? If he wedded Messalina, he would be, nonetheless, interesting. You know I am not a champion of marriage. The real drawback to marriage is that it makes one unselfish. And unselfish people are colorless.

They lack individuality. Still, there are certain temperaments that marriage makes more complex. They retain their egotism and add to it many other egos. They are forced to have more than one life. They become more highly organized, and to be highly organized is, I should fancy, the object of man's existence.

Besides, every experience is of value, and whatever one may say against marriage, it is certainly an experience. I hope that Dorian Gray will make this girl his wife, passionately adore her for six months, and then suddenly become fascinated by someone else. He would

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: be a wonderful study. Nick read from The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde, first published in 1890. The novel follows a young man who trades his soul for eternal youth and beauty while his portrait bears the marks of his corruption. Wilde's sharp wit and moral rebellion left a lasting impression on Nick. His refusal to conform to only be one thing mirrored the kind of freedom she strives for in her own work and life.

Nic Stone: Sticking this idea that, like, you have to stay the same your entire life. You drive your heels down. This is what you believe and you never deviate from it is incredibly boring to me. So like I challenge everything and that's where the stories come from. The aim of challenging everything, of course, as I keep saying, is to create space for people to feel human.

So I just love that passage. Number one, it's super irreverent. Yes. It's very countercultural and it's subversive. And, like, I like things that challenge what I

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: think and what I believe. Do you remember when you first read it?

Nic Stone: I was just starting to write. Like, I was starting to, like, figure out what I wanted to write about. Like, I had discovered that writing was something I could do. And so it was a combination of reading the picture of Dorian Gray and I was also just obsessed with John Green. But John Green told this story about a famous Muslim woman who would travel around her town with a bucket of water and a torch.

Right? And when she was asked, why are you traveling around with a bucket of water and a torch? She would say, I want to burn down the gates of heaven and put out the flames of hell so that people would interact with God not for desire for heaven or fear of hell, but just because of who God is. And, like, taking away kind of the punishment reward thing, the way that that completely changes one's relationship to judgment as a concept and to morality as a concept combined with, like, I neither approve nor disapprove of anything. I'm not put into the world to air my moral prejudices.

Like, for me, that cracked open writing in general. Like, what it is that I wanted to, like, put into the work that I'm doing. Yeah. And I'm really thankful. Look, I don't like people getting hurt, obviously.

Like, I'm like, bro, don't marry her in the six months, bro. Come on now. Like

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. But that idea of, like, removal of judgment, that can crack open something else.

Nic Stone: Yes. It's approaching everything in the world through the lens of curiosity, which is about being open. Right? Like, curiosity is about willingness to pursue experiences. It's about being willing to be wrong.

Right? Like, if you're curious about something, you are admitting that you don't have an answer.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah.

Nic Stone: And, like, that's really hard for people. It's hard for people to admit that they don't know things and that they don't have answers because we live in this society that's hyper insistent on certainty, but like certainty isn't actually real. Like, it doesn't exist. It is impossible to be certain of anything. Even what I just said, I cannot be certain

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah.

Nic Stone: That certainty isn't real. It's like I can have a perspective. But for me, it's important that my perspective stay flexible because my perspective could need updating. Yeah. It could need to be changed based on new information.

So curiosity over certainty, friends.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: That curiosity, that willingness to stay open, to keep learning runs deep for Nick. In Boomtown, the openness with which she writes helped her father see himself differently and as Nick shared, even to begin to heal. But long before she could write about that kind of transformation, she saw it modeled in him.

Nic Stone: My dad and I just have the coolest relationship. He celebrated thirty years of sobriety last year. Right? So this was year 31. And, like, he is the most human person I know.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Oh, wow. So you started seeing that when you were 10?

Nic Stone: When I was 10.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: That's interesting.

Nic Stone: Let's see. I wasn't even 10 yet. I was nine.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah.

Nic Stone: And, like, he would take me with him to his AA meetings. So then I'm surrounded by these adults who are literally, the first words out of their mouth are them admitting that they have a problem. And, like, to see these people who are willing to be, like, not getting it right. Yeah. You know?

I'm not only harming myself, I've also done great harm to people around me. Like, just seeing that level of vulnerability and accountability. Like, my dad taught me about boundaries. My dad taught me about self awareness. My dad taught me about not bringing harm to other people.

My dad taught me the importance of, like, taking care of your body. Like, he's like that one. Like, I love that man. He's delightful. He was not always that way, though, because before that, he was a drunk and a drug addict, and he could be awful sometimes.

Right? My mom shielded me from a lot. And this is something I've come to realize as I've gotten older. My mom shielded me from a lot prior to my dad getting sober, but there's this kind of back and forth flow. Right?

Like, I learn from him all the time. So I'm always shocked when he's telling me that, like, he's learning something from me, and I'm shocked and honored and, like, a privilege because I'm like, I mean, really, you learn it from yourself because what you just learned, I've got from you. You are me. Kinda remix it a little bit, made it a little more twenty first century, you know, and it's great. You know,

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: when you're when you're young and you don't really understand all the things everybody's talking about, obviously, you know, you can't understand. But, yeah, to to see people, like, lead with that type of vulnerability and to, like you're saying, acknowledge that is, like, really puts you in a place of and that is also, like, supposed to be a no judgment Yeah. Place. Right? So that's also, like, a deep rooting of that.

Correct.

Nic Stone: And, of course, there's still judgment that happens. You you're dealing with people who are actively judging themselves. Right? Like, if you are constantly judging yourself, there is no way you are not judging the people around you. Like, if you're not happy in your body, in your being, where with where you are in life, it's not possible for you to be openly nonjudgmental toward other people.

But, like, I just I would love for adults to just, like, stop lying to children. We don't need to lie to children. Yeah. We can tell children the truth. We can show them who we are carefully.

But, like, any area where you have any sort of, like, shame is an area that needs to be examined. Right?

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah.

Nic Stone: Because that shame just impacts everything and everyone around you. It does. And I don't lie to my kids. My kids know all of my business because it's important to me. Mhmm.

My nine year old, week before last, when BoomTown came out, right, me and my 13 year old were both at the book launch. I talk openly no matter where I am. Like, they hear what I actually think about things. They hear how I actually feel. And after the launch, my nine year old came to me and he said, mommy, I would like to read BoomTown.

And I said, you got it. Go for it. And so he and and one of his classmates, like, there's another mom. Like, there's another one of me at the scene. Read aloud

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: or it's like a read to self? They're reading

Nic Stone: to self, but they, like, are having a book club about it. Like, these two nine year olds. And, like, I love it so much. So it's because it's one of those things get what they

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: get, and they're not gonna get what they don't get. It's like anybody reading all that stuff when they're young. You know? Like, if you don't know it, you don't know it. You know?

Nic Stone: So much of it is a metaphor. It's going over their heads. But the other piece of this is, and this is something that I really want parents to examine for themselves. How much better is it for my nine year old to learn about sex work from a book that I wrote and heavily researched Yep. Than to learn it from some random friend in class.

Right? Parents setting the standard is really important. Like, it's really important that we help our children understand the world around them Yeah.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah.

Nic Stone: Based on who they are. Right? Like, children are books to be read. They're not stories to be written. Like, there is so much that I learned from my kids because they have a different life than I had, different personalities.

And, like, we are on this shared journey where my job is to lead them. Right, and to guide them. It's not to tell them exactly what to do, exactly how to do it, here are the lines you need to color with it. Like, I'm I'm just I'm never gonna be that mom. Also, I, again, think the world would be better if we set kids up to accept themselves and love themselves and love the people around them.

And my dad did that for me.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. Right. And there's some even when your people are flawed, like, do that. That's, like, the thing.

Nic Stone: Because everybody is flawed. There's no such thing as a person with no flaws.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Throughout our conversation, Nick kept returning to the idea of expansion, of becoming her full self, unafraid to take risks or to be honest and to let every part of who she is take up space. That same openness, that same acceptance of the messy and the real is also at the heart of forgiveness. So as our conversation drew to a close, I was curious about how she thinks about forgiveness and how her understanding of it has evolved.

Nic Stone: The one thing that I will say that I got from evangelical Christianity that I will never get rid of is the power of forgiveness. Forgiveness is for me. It's not for the other person. Right? Like, I think of for me, I hate being unhappy.

I hate how yucky feelings feel in my body. Like, I don't wanna feel these things. So I have to feel them. You have to go through those emotions to get to the other side. Okay.

But if there is something sitting inside me that I can get rid of, it's gotta go. Right? And unforgiveness is one of those things. I've never been a grudge holder because I don't like how it feels. I once heard unforgiveness is like drinking poison and hoping someone else will die.

And I'm like, damn, that's good.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: That's

Nic Stone: good. So from the time I was like 17, anytime somebody upset me, I would write them a letter, like, ragey. All of the shit I was feeling, I'd write it down.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Do you remember one of them that you did that?

Nic Stone: Oh, I've I could I could name a 100 people I've done it for because I do I continue to do it.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: You write them a letter? Yeah.

Nic Stone: I write them a but they don't read it. It's for me. You hold the letter. So, like, I write a letter, and it's a whole it's like a step by step process. The feeling's gotta come out first.

Okay. Right? So how I feel needs to be expelled from my body, and I do that by hand. And then once I've gotten all my stuff out, I lay out what the person did. Right?

And then I lay out how it made me feel. And then by the time I've done that, I feel better. Because not only have I given myself the space to purge the the angry, hard, kind of violent stuff that we naturally feel when our boundaries are crossed because anger is all about your boundaries being crossed. I've also outlined to validate the thing that was done to me, and then I have outlined and validated how that thing made me feel. And I can literally see that I have done this.

Because we have gotten so used to language as a thing that you hear Mhmm. Right, we forget that, like, communication is a full body experience. So for me, part of writing the letter is the tactile sensation of my feelings quite literally leaving my fingertips. Being able to see with my eyes what it is that I was experiencing. And then I pull like, the final step is like, and yet, I don't want this in my body.

So in the court of, you know, Andrea Nicole Livingstone, because it's my whole name.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Okay.

Nic Stone: I am declaring you not guilty. You are free to go. Bang my gavel.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: So you're forgiving people without people asking for forgiveness? Absolutely.

Nic Stone: Because it ain't got nothing to do with them. For me, forgiveness has everything to do with me. How I interact with you afterwards is likely to change, but at the same time, like, I'm just not about to hold onto something. So then what I do is I take the letter and I burn it, as in like an offering. You burn it?

I burn it. So I have written this letter. It's got all of the stuff in it, and then I I burn it because it's like now it is it's ash. And then I'm good.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: What about when you want to get forgiveness from another like, you feel like I did this wrong or whatever? How do you approach that?

Nic Stone: When it comes to apologies, I do my best to make sure I offer three different types. So whatever has happened. Sometimes, I don't know that something has happened. Right. And a person will come to me and be like, you hurt my feelings when you did ABC.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: So people don't offer you the same grade?

Nic Stone: I mean, I don't care. It's like, it's okay. Right? Like, it's important for people to have the space to feel like they can express what they need to express. Like, I had a friend recently who we went to breakfast, and she expressed some frustration over the fact that there was something private that I hadn't shared with her.

Right? So the apology I apologized for making her feel way. Right? And when I am apologizing, there's a and I apologize. There's a I hope you can forgive me, and there's a I'm sorry for the thing that I did.

Right? So, like, three it's it's coming at you. You getting a three. Shooting at shooting at you three times. Yeah.

And then I'm letting myself off the hook. Yeah. Like, I am not a person who is going to hold a grudge against myself either. What you do with my apology is none of my business. But once I have apologized, like, once I feel like I have taken accountability

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah.

Nic Stone: And I have shown remorse, this what you decide to do with that, I have no control over. But I am very big on taking accountability, acknowledging when you hurt when I hurt somebody.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah.

Nic Stone: That it's very important because relationships are super important to me.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Have you ever, like, written or read something that helped you, like, process forgiveness in a different way or not really because it's been your reality all along?

Nic Stone: I will say something that has changed for me over time is the idea that forgiveness is an imperative. And I say that because there was a point in time where based on conditioning and, you know, indoctrination, if you will, I would have said that, like, unforgiveness is a sin. Right? Like, if there is something morally wrong about refusing or failing to forgive a person, and I just don't believe that anymore. Right?

Like, I think it is an individual decision. You get to decide whether or not you wanna forgive somebody. If you wanna hold a grudge, hold your grudge. What okay. Like, if you don't mind how that feels, absolutely.

I don't feel that way. And that came as a result of, I can't there there was it was a death. There was a death. And there was a person a family member of the person who was killed was like, no. I don't forgive them, and I never will.

And I had this moment where I was like, and that's okay. Like, wait. You don't actually have to forgive people if you don't want to. But that's really the only thing that has shifted for me over time. Like, I'm all probably gonna forgive.

Like I said, I don't like how it feels in my body. Will I continue to engage in the relationship in the same way? Nah. Like, I am not a person whose trust you have to earn. It is given to you.

But once you lose it, it's gone. It there's no coming back. It does not come back. So we cool. I'm not mad at you.

Yeah. But I'm also not

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: But also you're out of this inner circle.

Nic Stone: I'm good. Yeah. Like, I hope you have the best life, genuinely. If there's anything I can do to be of service to you, let me know. But, yes, our relationship has changed.

Period. Period.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Y'all talking with Nick just makes me wanna go out and live a little louder, and

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: I hope it does that for you too. I just I adore how she thinks about growth, like, not as a pivot or reinvention, but instead as this expansion, as adding lanes to our highway. And I am absolutely taking that from this conversation today. It really showed up everywhere in her story from the risks that she takes, the honesty she inherited from her dad, the forgiveness that she continues to practice, just what great insights. So thank you Nick for another fabulous conversation.

This has been the reading culture and you've been listening to our second chapter conversation with Nick Stone again I'm your host Jordan Lloyd bookie and currently I'm reading for my book club culpability by Bruce Holzinger and rereading all of Sophie Blackall's picture books. If you enjoyed today's episode, please show some love and give us a five star or written review wherever you're listening to our podcast. It just takes a second and it really helps ensure that our show gets shared with so many more listeners. So thank you. Thank you for doing that.

And to learn more about how you can help grow your community's reading culture, please check out all of our resources at beanstack.com. And remember to sign up for our newsletter at the readingculturepod.com forward slash newsletter for special offers and bonus content this episode was produced by Mel Webb and lower street media and script edited by Josiah Lamberto Egan. Thanks for listening, and keep reading.