Victoria Aveyard

Victoria Aveyard: Why are some people treated differently? Why are some people chosen ones for no particular reason? And why do some people get to have that extra shine and you can only, you know, claw based on your own merit and your own choices.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Unfairness can be slippery to define, but it's easy to feel. That gut deep sense that something in the balance just isn't right. So what happens when you realize that a whole genre of literature, your favorite genre, the one you love is deeply, habitually unfair? You might just have to rebuild it one new world at a time.

Victoria Aveyard: When we're writing our stories, we're interacting with the stories that formed us that weren't necessarily, you know, oh my god, wonderful, perfect, nothing to be done here, but also leaving us hungry for something else. And we're trying to feed that hunger with what we make next.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Victoria Aveyard is the number one New York Times best selling author of the Red Queen and Realm Breaker series, creating epic fantasy landscapes where women loom large, justice is never simple, and power is always up for grabs. In this conversation, Victoria explains why her sense of fair and unfair took shape early and why world building gives her a much needed feeling of control and why the unchosen characters are often the ones worth following and she tells us which undersized movie character remains her absolute icon when it comes to fighting the powerful. My name is Jordan Lloyd Bookie and this is the reading culture, a show where we speak with diverse authors about ways to build a stronger culture of reading in our community. We dive deep into their personal experiences and inspirations. Our show is made possible by Beanstack, the leading solution for motivating people to read more.

Learn more at beanstack.com and make sure to check us out on Instagram at the reading culture pod. Today, I want to congratulate our summer reading giveaway winner Nicholas Moore, a librarian at Cobb County Schools. Congratulations mister Moore and the buddy that he tagged mister Marlowe Williams your special edition podcast mugs and books by authors who have been featured on the show are in route remember to subscribe to our newsletter for future giveaways and you can do that by going to the readingculturepod.com forward slash newsletter alright on to the show listeners. Are you looking for a fun, easy way to track your reading and earn cool rewards? Well, meet Beanstack, the ultimate reading app used by a community of over 15,000 schools, libraries, and organizations nationwide.

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Ready to turn the page? Visit beanstack.com to learn more. I did listen to, like, a ton of podcasts with you and just read some articles and stuff first. And I think you're superstitious because you're always saying touch wood. Mhmm.

I also come from, like, an extremely superstitious family, so I'm just curious, unrelated to the theme of the episode, what are some of your, you know, super stick if you wanna give us a couple.

Victoria Aveyard: I get really, really nervous about jinxing things, especially good things. And I'm sure there's some deep psychological situation here, but I am constantly like, okay. Don't really settle into accepting really really good things, you know. Don't take it for granted. My parents, my dad especially, if anyone says like, oh, buh buh buh, maybe you'll just get in a car accident.

He's like, don't say that. Don't say that. Don't put that in the universe and touch wood, touch wood, touch wood, touch wood. And so that's probably where it comes from is my parents are very like, well, my mom will do it to piss him off and then he'll be like, don't do that. I think for him, it comes from it's very Italian Catholic, like very superstitious Catholic, not like Bible Catholic, but like almost on the way to pagan belief Catholic.

Like, we're still thinking about saints, and if you you touch the rosary in the right way, you'll be okay kind of thing. I think that's where it carries from.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Gotcha.

Victoria Aveyard: Yeah.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: I have more like superstition superstition.

Victoria Aveyard: Oh, I definitely do the salt over the shoulder. Like, if I yeah. That sort of thing.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. The black cats. You have black cats?

Victoria Aveyard: I actually grew up with a black cat, so that would never really bother me, but I have evil eyes. Like, I have, like, a saint in my car. That's those are definitely around. Did you

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: grow up in, like, culturally religious or, like, religious religious?

Victoria Aveyard: More culturally. So my dad's side my dad's mother was born in Italy and came to The US in the thirties. And she and her mother were very very religious superstitious, like, would be slipping rosaries into all of your things as sort of like protective little talismans. And then my mom on the other hand is very no nonsense, almost hyper logical. So that was an interesting dichotomy there.

She's very Scottish, very pragmatic.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: We're gonna talk a lot about justice and fairness and things of that nature. I wanted to ask you how you think about them generally, and like how you separate out justice versus fairness.

Victoria Aveyard: I feel like my idea of justice is probably a little bit harsh, because it's it's a little bit more revenge based. So I'm always thinking of justice in terms of, you know, something wrong has been done, and now how do you right that wrong? And there's always, you know, oh, you gotta let it go, and you can't let it corrupt you and rot you. And I'm just like, no. I am rotten with the need for justice, and the need for people to have come up, and And that's sort of really, really difficult to deal with when you live in a world where that's not necessarily the case.

You know, we were raised on all these stories where the bad guys do get their comeuppance and their recourse, and now we're living through and have constantly been living through moments where that is not a reality. Yeah. The moral arc of the universe bends towards justice. Let's see it fucking bend. Sorry.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: No. It's fine.

Victoria Aveyard: And fairness is just for me always rooted in everyone should be treated equally, and the standard should be the same for everyone. And I feel like I almost have like a childish view of that because I'm so locked in just like, no, why isn't this the same for this person? Mhmm. And I think the basis of it is I don't know how to act if the standards are different, if the rules for this person are different for this person, and then I'm like, well, what are the rules for me?

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: And do you recall, like, a specific moment in your childhood where you had that revelation of, like, someone's justice is not being served or thinking things were unfair?

Victoria Aveyard: I'm an eldest daughter to a younger brother. Boys and girls are naturally treated differently in families, and I remember being so so hyper aware. My brother is only two years younger than me, of just how differently we were treated and what the expectations were. And I totally understand, you know, two different children at two different stages in their life, but being the elder daughter and seeing someone else, you know Mhmm. Be told, oh, that thing you just did was great.

And I'm like, well, the thing I just did was 10 times greater. Why am I not getting and I feel like that pressure point was created very, very early on as a child where I just thought, you know, I am not getting the same treatment, and I don't understand why. And then that colored so many more things as I got older of I don't know how to act because I don't know what the standards are because the standards appear to be different, and that doesn't make sense to me on, like, a a molecular level. In hindsight, you look at it and you think, of course, things were different because you were just two different kids who learned in different ways and had different struggles and advantages. So you're parented differently.

But living in it as a kid, you don't have that perspective. And what were, like, the cultural

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: influences on you at that time in your life? Like, you seeing things around you that you think were reinforcing that or they were helping you to question what you were experiencing?

Victoria Aveyard: My dad, when I was growing up, he was a history teacher, an American history teacher. And so that was sort of always something in the back of my mind is us being told events in history, and getting what it was in the classroom in school, and then getting our dad being like, and this is actually the other side of that event, and how things were changed, and getting those on the macro level. It's not just you experiencing, you know, the standards are different, but this is a global reality that has been for a long time. And I remember just having all these very childish frustrations with not being able to sort of understand or parse why things are different for different people. And then the flip was, my mom, up until she retired, was an English teacher.

And she would always teach a really really big holocaust unit at her school, and so they would have a lot of different books that they would read. But my sort of version of that was I remember reading Number of the Stars, and that was one of those first books where you didn't really understand. What do you mean this thing happened to these people for no particular reason that we can understand other than these people said they were different? I remember that being very much like a moment of, wait a second. What do you mean that happened?

What do you mean that continued to happen? What do you mean that happened quite recently? What do you mean that is something that for a lot of people is still very prevalent in their lives? I think that was one that really jumped out to me when you look back. Not like just frustration, but almost like a computer glitching where you can't even comprehend it.

And you can really track daughter of a history teacher, daughter of an English teacher, and now she writes fantasy novels. It makes a lot of sense.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Victoria's parents lessons planted the seed for a writer who would repeatedly tackle issues of inequality and unfairness. But mom and dad were far from Victoria's only influence. She was intrigued by maps and captivated by movies, including one classic film heroine who in a single scene became Victoria's forever role model for confronting uneven power dynamics.

Victoria Aveyard: So I've always been into atlases and geography. I was the weirdo who would go to the library and I'd go to the atlases. But something about the fantasy maps about this suddenly idea that you could create maps of your own of unreal places. That was the first time I really connected that. I think I was maybe six or seven.

And I started drawing fantasy maps of my own and the natural next step after you draw the map of like, here's the castle, here's the mountain, here's the river. What's happening in this world? And that's when I started writing sort of stories of my own about what was going on in these fantasy worlds. So my first sort of approach to storytelling, at least telling my own stories, was as a way to build these worlds that I could control. And then naturally, okay, what's happening in them?

And I always gravitated towards stories even before I could read that were of these big immersive worlds. I was a big, you know, Star Wars kid that captured my imagination so early.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Can you speak a little bit more about Star Wars and, like, what was drawing you in at that time?

Victoria Aveyard: I actually I literally wrote a college essay about, like, the symbolism and visual element of Princess Leia and how foundational it was to me, and probably my personality is like a bossy little brunette girl. But one of the first images you see in A New Hope is Princess Leia, five foot two, staring up at the scariest looking person you've ever seen, Darth Vader, black helmet, black cape, black armor, and you're I'm, you know, four or five years old watching this tiny little girl square off on this guy and give him a what for and yell at him and argue with him and I'm like, hell yeah, girl. There's my personality. It's it just locked at five years old. It's Princess Leia yelling at Darth Vader.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Movies became Victoria's storytelling compass. She learned that a great story wasn't only in the words on the page. In fact, it was what you could understand without words that mattered most.

Victoria Aveyard: My background is in film. I went to film school. I studied screenwriting. And anytime anyone says, know, what's a perfect movie or what's a perfect story to you? I'm like, it's Raiders of the Lost Ark.

It's perfect. Steven Spielberg uses light and sound and cinematography, composition, music, all of these things to tell the story without words. You can watch that movie with all of the dialogue taken out, and you can understand it. And I did as a kid, and so I'm always trying to find those stories that are so visceral, that are so almost molecular on how you understand them. And that's what I'm always going for, you know.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: I didn't know that you studied film till after I've read your work and I think it does read like somebody who's you feel that you're, like, surrounded by what's happening, you know.

Victoria Aveyard: Oh, well, thank you. I think anytime someone asks an aspiring writer or someone who wants to write novels ask me, you know, do you have a recommendation for a kind of writing class I should take? I do always say like, well, have you taken any screenwriting classes? Because it helps you with momentum and I think that's why I gravitate towards young adult Mhmm. Specifically because this is what I think when I hear so many adult readers saying, I want this You story but for adults.

And it's like, you're not actually looking for the young adult genre. You're looking for the young adult pace.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Interesting.

Victoria Aveyard: Because young adult novels are paced so beautifully.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Victoria's screenwriting experience cemented one standard by which she still weighs a book. It must have propulsive storytelling. As a reader, she does not suffer meandering prose lightly.

Victoria Aveyard: I'm a very lazy reader. I need you to keep pulling me and I almost I will clock out if, you know, I get to a point where I'm like, this means nothing and suddenly we're, you know, in a coffee shop for 200 pages just bantering. What do you mean this? There's nothing happening here. I need something to be happening.

Call me old fashioned, but I need a plot.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: But as she transitioned from screenwriting to novel writing, Victoria also began looking to rectify another more serious shortcoming in the fantasy books she had grown up on.

Victoria Aveyard: The through line of a lot of what I wrote was I was adding female characters to stories that did not have women or that only had, you know, the one token female character. And in hindsight, it was like, that's what I wanted is I wanted my stories to have more women in them. And a lot of people ask me, you know, oh, is your Lord of the Rings fan fiction still up? And I'm like, I wrote Realm Breaker because I love Lord of the Rings so much and wanted so much more from those books and Yeah. Wanted to be a part of them and felt like at every turn you were told you cannot be a part of this story.

And yet. And yet. So I wrote Realm Breaker and in the first chapter of that book, there is a pseudo fellowship of the ring who goes out to save the world, and they all get murdered. And I'm like, okay, how how do we do this now?

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: I was thinking about that when I

Victoria Aveyard: was Yeah. And it was it was the springboard. It was the jumping off point. And I think that's what a lot of us do is when we're writing our stories, we're interacting with the stories that formed us that weren't necessarily, you know, oh my god. Wonderful.

Perfect. Nothing to be done here. But they were feeding something in us, but also leaving us hungry for something else. And we're trying to feed that hunger with what we make next. One of the things I always had a problem with was you get all these fantasy fanboys who are very angry when suddenly there's a person of color at a crowd scene in a fantasy film or something, and you're like, well, you don't seem to care that there are tomatoes or potatoes, which are New World crops, and you don't give a shit that they haven't had contact with the New World yet.

So that was in my head where I was thinking about the medieval world, specifically the Mediterranean medieval world, and what a cross section it was of many different cultures and ethnicities. So when I was building the world of Realm Breaker, I was like, I want it to feel real and lived in, and real and lived in to me means many different peoples. It means trade. It means languages. It means borders.

It means political movements. It means all of these things together. That's what I'm always sort of shooting for with my world, and I wanna feel like I have written a Lord of the Rings that I could be in.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Okay. I'm gonna read you this quote, but it's actually it's about science fiction, and it's from Samuel Delaney. But I think you can apply it to fantasy. So it says, science fiction isn't just thinking about the world out there. It's also thinking about how that world might be a particularly important exercise for those who are oppressed.

Because if they're going to change the world we live in Mhmm. Then they and all of us have to be able to think about a world that works differently, end quote. And so I'm wondering, like, how much is your creating your world and your kind of I guess we're talking on the edges of this, but, like, how much are you thinking about balancing commentary on our own society with just crafting something completely from scratch.

Victoria Aveyard: Right. I feel like my sort of gravitation towards world building comes from this inherent need I have for control while feeling out of control or feeling like I don't have much control over what's going on in my world, so I'm gonna build this world that I have full control over. And with Red Queen specifically, I remember one of the things that really inspired that book because one of the foundations of the world is that it is a hugely binary divide between peoples, and it's based on something no one can control. And I remember being really inspired by the idea in the education system that in some school systems, depending on where they are or what kind of resources they have, students can be tracked. And they're put on certain tracks from when they are very very young, and it's really really hard to jump out of those educational tracks.

And that was always something I thought about that was very very frustrating, especially as a kid who went to public school, but ended up at a really incredible private university where I encountered wealth and privilege like I had never encountered in my entire life before. That idea that kids based on nothing more than where they were born or basically what tax bracket they were in could be tracked into these educational pathways that would limit them for the rest of their lives and limit their opportunities. And it would be very very difficult for anyone to break out of those unless you were exceptional at something, be it writing or an athletic sport or some talent. There were very very few ways you could claw yourself out of those pathways once you were in them. And I thought about that in terms of the world of Red Queen of being put into these pathways from birth that you couldn't really remove yourself from.

Inej almost felt sorry for her. Danyasha really believed she was the Lancelot heir, and maybe she was. But wasn't that what every girl dreamed, that she'd wake up and find herself a princess or blessed with magical powers and a grand destiny? Maybe there were people who lived those lives. Maybe this girl was one of them.

But what about the rest of us? What about the nobodies and the nothings, the invisible girls? We learned to hold our heads as if we wear crowns. We learned to wring magic from the ordinary. That was how you survived when you weren't chosen, when there was no royal blood in your veins.

When the world owed you nothing, you demanded something of it anyway.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: That's a reading from Leigh Bardugo's 2015 fantasy novel Six of Crows. We're hearing the thoughts of a poor thief named Inej who has just dueled and slain a highborn assassin princess who everyone had assumed to be fated for greatness. Victoria chose this moment because it gave voice to one of her major frustrations with fantasy namely the genre's clingy infatuation with one inherently unfair character type.

Victoria Aveyard: It was a perfect send up of the chosen one trope and a wonderful critique of the fantasy stories that we all gravitate towards, the ones that kind of show us people who are special, not just for their deeds, but for their birth. And I absolutely loved reading this moment and seeing this criticism laid out in black and white, because most of us do wish, like, we were the lost princess, and none of us are. And how do we move forward with that when even our escapes shove that impossibility in our face? Lee nailed it. I was in the process of writing the Red Queen series.

I think I was about I was at least two books in, maybe in the middle of writing the third when I read Crooked Kingdom.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Mhmm.

Victoria Aveyard: And I was already hearing sort of fan theories about why the heroine in my own books was special. Like, was she a secret princess and or born of some special bloodline? And that had was never my aim with those books. I always wanted Mare Barrow of Red Queen to be that slum girl who was from the slums, and sort of make her the sum of her own choices as opposed to it almost feels like a Deus Ex Machina to have them sweep in at the end and be like, she was special all along because her mom was actually the lost princess. I almost feel like that undercuts a lot of accomplishment.

Yeah. And then when I wrote Realm Breaker, I approached it from the opposite side. In that series, my main character Corayne is the so called chosen one from the special bloodline, and she wants no part of it. It's like a burden. It's not an honor, and it represents a disconnect that she can never regain.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: What is that line that she said about ringing it from the ringing it out of the?

Victoria Aveyard: Yes. It's we learn to ring magic from the ordinary. Oh. I know. I'm reading The Familiar right now, Leigh's latest adult book, and it has a similar, you know, ordinary women who become extraordinary through their own sheer will.

And I love It's so good.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. Did you when you were younger, you still like speaking of just the trope of the chosen one, did you sort of have that, like, I'm gonna wake up in the matrix one day and someone's gonna tell me what's going on here?

Victoria Aveyard: Not so much, but I really really read so many. I read all those royal diaries books. Mhmm. And I was really into like the Tudors and Catherine called Birdie and the Midwife's Apprentice and very much into that like shade of history. I read so much about Queen Elizabeth, Elizabeth the first, and I feel like she was almost in hindsight the chosen one, but in the moment, she's, you know, the forgotten daughter too.

And maybe that was like me dealing with like, I feel like the forgotten daughter in a very, very present family. So

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: already from a pretty young age, you were thinking about your place and about these different expectations based on family and gender. And as another eldest daughter, I get that. And now, I guess, as an author, you're you're channeling your princess Leia and shoving back against those long embedded tropes.

Victoria Aveyard: And I think a lot of it and maybe this all dovetails together, the chosen one versus the standards and justice, and why are some people treated differently? Why are some people chosen ones for no particular reason? And why do some people get to have that extra shine and you can only, you know, claw based on your own merit and your own choices.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: You know, it's interesting because you do create these worlds in which there's like this whole other power dynamic.

Victoria Aveyard: Yeah. And then balancing against, you know, the greater world and the world we all live in. I don't think there's a balance. I think there's just one day you're numb and one day you're screaming at the walls. Mhmm.

And how do you channel that into your art? Because the art is the weapon that most of us have. I remember writing the Red Queen books, and the first one came out in 2015, the second in 2016 before the first Trump election. Third one came out in 2017 right after, and it was an interesting and that third book had been written before election, and it was suddenly interesting getting all of this pushback about how I made my books too political all of a sudden. And I had that moment of, you know, I'm basing this off off of historical fascism and historical dictators.

Dictators. And if you're connecting the two, what does that say?

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Confronted with a polarized American audience, Victoria's approach is to offer her readers a potential way to see the world and its injustices more clearly.

Victoria Aveyard: There are so many things happening that I can't do anything about, and I am constantly trying to remind myself like the work is the thing you can do. Even if the only thing you're doing is maybe giving someone an escape into a different world to allow them to recharge or feel safe, or open their eyes to something new. I think that's what we're always shooting for is that moment where you pull back the curtain a little bit. We talk a lot about reading being a political act, and I know there's a quite a bit of pushback from readers saying, you know, I don't think about politics when I read. I don't think politically when I read.

They don't think, you know, a fantasy novel is necessarily political, And that's not true. Everything we do is political. Reading is political. Being able to read the things you are able to read, the things you are able to access, all of that is political. It's figuring out how to sugarcoat the pill Mhmm.

And making even the people who are hesitant or resistant to new forms of thinking realize their eyes have been opened without them even knowing it. Maybe doing it without someone realizing you're doing it is the way to go.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Would you want to like live in one of your worlds?

Victoria Aveyard: I do get that question a lot of like, oh, what would you be in Lord of the Rings? And I'm like, I would be luckily, if I'm lucky, a hobbit.

Camille Perez: Yeah.

Victoria Aveyard: If I'm lucky, I'm a hobbit in the Shire who's just like, oh, what's going on over there? I'm gonna hear the news six months later. To be fair, the Shire is very technologically advanced. They have glass. They have a postal system.

And then you go through the rest of the country, and you're like, oh, the king of Rohan lives in a barn. I'd rather be in the Shire. They have whipped cream. Yeah. But I am always I think that's who I'm writing for is the people who are like, I would have been a villager who heard about the battle six months later.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Victoria's Reading Challenge is a set of stories that dig into what it means to be chosen and what it means not to be. They're books that question why certain people are handed the quest, the crown, the magic, and what happens to everyone else.

Victoria Aveyard: In relation to that passage from Crooked Kingdom, I was thinking about chosen and unchosen, like books that subvert or reject the trope of the chosen one. I because I love that trope, and I love finding new ways into them. Yes. So my first one is obviously going to be Legendborn by Tracy Deonn. It hits so beautifully and so hard on the different standards for young black women through the lens of a modern King Arthur story.

I struggle to think of a novel that balances those fantastical elements with the real and making making them both feel as frustrating and dangerous as each other. This is, you know, a literal reincarnation of King Arthur is in the mix alongside a main character who doesn't belong, but might be exactly what is needed to save the world. So we have, like, the literal chosen one and the unchosen one together. A Song of Ice and Fire by George RR Martin. Pretend the show didn't happen.

We have so many different chosen ones in the air named by prophecy or religion or birth birth or power. Some are dying. Some are rising to power. It is a mess of chosen ones and not so chosen ones, and you get to see all of that fall out together. Then there's the Gilded Ones by Namina Forma.

She is a this book is about a group of chosen ones who are used for nefarious purposes and have to sort of fight back, so it's almost fighting back against your identity. Veronica Roth literally wrote a book called Chosen Ones, which is about what happens to chosen ones after the world is saved. An Ember in the Ashes series and the new expansion Heir by Saba Tahir. Princes, orphans, nobles, common folk, they all crash together in this expansive world that shows it's not what you're born as, what you make yourself into, and what road you choose.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: You can find Victoria's reading challenge and the full list of titles she has curated as well as all past reading challenges at the readingculturepod.com. This week's Beanstack featured librarian is Camille Perez, a former media specialist at the elementary and high school levels in Osceola County, Florida, and now my colleague at Beanstack. Camille is a stellar teammate, and if you're a Beanstack client, you have likely encountered her on the help desk. And today, Camille shares a couple of hot takes about the school library.

Camille Perez: I think a lot of libraries are kinda pushing towards the genre fication because it makes sense, you know, it's how a bookstore is laid out, just easier to find what you like. That's definitely one. But also just the culture, you know, the quiet, like libraries are supposed to be quiet, they're not. Like it's okay if your library is not pin drop quiet because I feel like the sign of a healthy library and the sign of the library doing its job, is being the heart of the school, is sound. It's hearing life in there, and it's hearing kids talking, having conversations about books, about school, about what they're doing the next day.

It's just all sorts of converse if you're having conversations in the library, then I feel like you're growing, you know, the culture of reading.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: This has been the reading culture and you've been listening to my conversation with Victoria Aveyard. Again, I'm your host Jordan Lloyd Bookie and currently I'm reading run away with me by Brian Selznick and throne of glass by Sarah J Maas. If you enjoyed today's episode, please take one minute to give us five stars on Apple or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your reviews help get the show recommended to others and everyone really matters. So thank you for those who are doing it.

We appreciate you. This episode was produced by Mel Webb Josiah Lamberto Egan Zoe Anderson and Lower Street Media and script edited by Josiah Lamberto Egan to learn more about how you can help grow your community's culture, please check out all of our resources at beanstack.com. And remember to sign up for our newsletter at the readingculturepod.com forward slash newsletter for special offers and bonus content. Thanks for listening and keep reading.